AMHS

[JWC sr.]

Okay I will rise to the bait, even though it is a little off topic as far as a new registry is concerned. Which for the record I don’t think we need, the two existing registries are fine like they are and if AMHA wants to do anything, simply raise the size limits to 38†to mirror the sizes allowed in AMHR and move on with cleaning up the measuring fiasco by standardizing the measurement of our horses like the rest of the horse world i.e. to the top of the withers.

As far as getting away from a points system for qualification to attend nationals as an exhibitor, I completely disagree with this premise. In fact think it probably should be made harder for an exhibitor to qualify to attend national’s. It would encorage more participation in the local shows and help the local clubs which are the foundation of our breed in my opinion.

As most folks know we have 7 of our 9 grandchildren that show, each of them has a horse that they train with assistance from Cindy, Jose and myself that we bred and raised here on the farm. When they started to show 1 at a time years ago, we were using trainers for our open horses and we tried having the same trainers work with the kids horses for a couple of years. The kids were allowed to show horses that they had little contact with and that were trained and groomed by the trainers. It was expensive and additionally the kids were learning very little if anything about horse care, daily grooming etc. We decided while it might effect the success of our “Open†horses by not having a named trainer on the end of the lead, that the things learned by the kids by the daily interaction and training of their horses were more important to us.

So we brought the horses home, hired Jose to help with the fitting/showing of the open horses and the kids now work with their horses on a daily basis personally. A much better learning experience for them to help build the self esteem and traits they will need to be competitive in the real world one day. Hard work and dedication equals achievement around here and it is taught every time we get a chance.

That long explanation gets around to this point, even though as a grandfather I would love to see them all get everything they want, such as being able to exhibit at nationals. Without hard work, even a horse with good conformation will not qualify. Three years ago I had a grandson that did not work with his gelding during the year much and while the others would be practicing and working with the horses he chose to do other things. He ended up not qualifying for nationals that year, while his sister and cousins did.

He was crushed, he sat on the side lines at nationals and watched them compete. The next year he applied himself, was a completely different guy and the day he qualified for nationals he came out of the ring grinning form ear to ear. It meant something to him and he had learned a life lesson that will stay with him hopefully the rest of his life. “If you want something you have to be prepared to work hard for it†:aktion033:

A second incident happened this last year, another granddaughter is in love with her gelding and he is not ever going to be competitive in the halter ring. But she still wants to work and show him. We sure have other horse that she could change to and probably win with, but she loves Rainy. So she has decided to stop showing in halter and train him to do obstacle and jumping. Pretty heady decision for a 10 year old and I am sure she will be successful with him because of her dedication and love for the gelding. That is another life lesson I hope she can keep with her. She found a niche she and her horse could fit into and feels great about her new adventure.

:

Bottom line is that within each registry we should strive to make the National’s experience a special one, where the best of the breed are exhibited. Additionally we should make sure they are classes where an exhibitor that does not have a 15,000 dollar + horse can compete and be included. If that be in showmanship, REAL amateur classes, obstacle, jumping or whatever. Just as important to the overall scheme of things, but not represented as being National caliber halter horses. But we do not allow the nationals experience to be cheapened by lowering the standards by which horses and/or exhibitors qualify and are allowed to exhibit at nationals. When one of my grandkids wins a national championship (hopefully one day, they have gotten close but not yet), I want it to be because they have worked hard, chosen a good horse to work with and achieved a goal that was hard to accomplish but worth the effort to say the least. Those are the life lessons that are worth more than anything in the world to a kid that will have to live and compete in a really demanding world where nothing worthwhile comes easy.

My 50 cents worth. LOL

 

[Belinda]

As far as getting away from a points system for qualification to attend nationals as an exhibitor, I completely disagree with this premise. In fact think it probably should be made harder for an exhibitor to qualify to attend national’s. It would encorage more participation in the local shows and help the local clubs which are the foundation of our breed in my opinion.

Bottom line is that within each registry we should strive to make the National’s experience a special one, where the best of the breed are exhibited. Additionally we should make sure they are classes where an exhibitor that does not have a 15,000 dollar + horse can compete and be included. If that be in showmanship, REAL amateur classes, obstacle, jumping or whatever. Just as important to the overall scheme of things, but not represented as being National caliber halter horses. But we do not allow the nationals experience to be cheapened by lowering the standards by which horses and/or exhibitors qualify and are allowed to exhibit at nationals. When one of my grandkids wins a national championship (hopefully one day, they have gotten close but not yet), I want it to be because they have worked hard, chosen a good horse to work with and achieved a goal that was hard to accomplish but worth the effort to say the least. Those are the life lessons that are worth more than anything in the world to a kid that will have to live and compete in a really demanding world where nothing worthwhile comes easy.

My 50 cents worth. LOL

Ok John , You and I have had some really good debates

: But let me say , now you are sounding like the "Big Dog" !!!

: Who are you to say that you only want the ""BEST OF THE BREED " exhibited at Nationals, and segregate those that can not or DO NOT want to spend as you quote $15,000 + on a horse, so we will have the " THE CHEAP HORSE CLASS" AND THE MILLION DOLLAR HORSE CLASS" :new_shocked: :new_shocked: Come on !

I think it is great that you are teaching your grand kids life's up's and down's and how to work hard to obtain their goals.. As I did the same with my son..

: But who are we to tell everyone that is how to conduct their personal goals.. :no:

And while on the subject your Kids do a great job.. !! :aktion033:

But unlike you , Not everyone can afford a Live In Trainer :no: Nor have the luxury of Job that they can have all the time off to go to shows, to qualify. I know that you and I can go ANYTIME we want.. And if you can not go you send your trainer. And that ok too , as I am a trainer and a lot of my client's can not just drop everything and go either

:

So what is wrong with having 1700 horses at Nationals ?? For the Bank account not a Darn thing.. LOL!! :bgrin

I wish you would take the time to come to R National and if nothing else just look around at the quality horses , and to see all the MOM and Pops that are there with their Children and oh get this ONE ,, HAVING A GREAT TIME :lol:

OK , I am with you on the top of the wither measurement and I am making a proposal for AMHR to do the same.. Was to late this year for me to get it in. We measure the Ponies on the wither ! And I can tell you , NO matter where I take them who is measuring etc,, they NEVER change in height more than a 1/8 " across the country.. and that little bit can be hoof growth , flooring etc.. Most of the time they are right on the same height Regardless.. So it does WORK

:

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Thanks for letting me rattle on .. I step down from the box now... :saludando:

 

[Margot]

I don't think we need a new registry, all my horses are double registered so if any do go over they are still AMHR horses although I breed for under 34" we all know that even offspring of small horses occasionally go over. I agree with Belinda that it should be easier to take a horse to AMHA Nationals. In some area it is hard and expensive to find enough AMHA shows to get those points. If people want to take horses that are not competative in open classes tha should be their choice, there are plenty of other classes they can show in and have a good time. It would certainly benefit AMHA finacially to have the number of horses at the National show that AMHR has at their show. I know many people that no longer show AMHA because they feel the small guy has no chance against the "Fat Cats", AMHA could turn that around by making it easier to go to Nationals. You do not have to have a super expensive horse, some breeders have gorgeous horses that have never been shown, to win in open classes but I think you do have to have a trainer, if a trainer will not take your horse it is because they don't think they can win with it so why waste your money. Pick out the best horse you have and go have fun with it. At local shows I show in open classes and if my horse comes in second or third behind a trainers horse I am delighted, I enjoy showing but I am realistic about my chances of winning, the horses shown by trainers win not because the judges are prejudiced, although sometimes they may be, but because the trainers pick and choose the best horses. As for measuring that is a big on-going problem at both AMHA and AMHR shows where we have all seen horses measure in that are very noticeably way to big for that class, I hope it can be solved because it does, rightly, make people very angry.

 

[JWC sr.]

First let me start off by saying as you have said, you and I have had this discussion with each other before and even though we disagree on some issues, you know that you are one of my favorite people to discuss things like this with becuase we both will openly state what we believe and then respectfully agree to disagree. But you have always handled yourself in a manner that was pretty open and honest in my dealings with you.

I also applaud you for making the proposal to AMHR on the measurment, you are going to be a great asset to them as a director in my opinion. If i flys in AMHR, maybe the AMHA directors will follow suit. I hope so!

As far as coming off like a "big dog" as you call it I don't think so, I only wish I was one. LOL All my life I have been involved with showing of horses, cattle and other types of livestock. In each of those venues the purpose of just about any show was to separate the best animals from the rest. In many cases this was done so as to guide a breed or type towards improving the conformation or meat production etc. towards whatever the desired breed/type standard was.

Typically a regional or national show was even harder to make it into becuase of the level of competition. People quickly learn as I have that to bring a so-so hog or, steer horse or whatever to the local county show might be okay, but if I take the same animal to the Houston Livestock show for example I will not make it into the show. A perfect example of this is the way most livestock shows use a sift show or committee to remove animals that do not meet a minimum standard that they set. Due to this the animals in each division get better and better each year and the breed/type improves because of it.

This is good for the breed and showcases what the powers that be have as a breed/type standard. It has nothing to do with a million dollar class or a cheap person's class. I have a family here in our area that don't have a lot of money, but they have spent some of what they have to produce some really awesome swine and they kick the living daylights out of everyone else in the are on a regular basis. That is a good thing and the rest of us have looked, learned and are now becoming competitive with them by improving our stock we show against them.

So with that said I want the same thing for a Nationals show in that when someone goes to the show not knowing what a good miniature horse looks like they see the showcase of the breed. Different types for different purposes sure, but the best of the best I.E. driving, performance, halter etc.

As far as how AMHR does thier national show that is fine, it has been done that way for years and as you know "r"' is where Cindy and I started many years ago. We only go to three or 4 of the r shows each year, so if I am not going to be involved as much as I could be, then I should not be presumtive enough to tell them how to do thier shows. It has worked for them and that is a great deal for them with over 1,500+ horse attending the last "R" national show in Tulsa as we all know.

Actually Jose Perez our farm manager and friend, who by the way is a great guy does a lot more than just train the show horses, he acts as a farm manager, farrier, fence builder etc etc, he is indeed a man of many talents that we dearly love. And yes things here are really different since he became part of our family. We compete against the big farms and show what we breed. Do we have a chance against the big farms, sure we do and we are getting better and more competitive against them every year. Cindy and Jose are very serious about the horses they are producing and work hard at it. The politics are there, but we think we can be successful in the long run as long as Cindy and Jose continue to improve the quality of the herd each year. It is a lot of fun for me to watch the rigors they go thru when trying to decide who to sell, who to breed who to etc etc.

As far as being able to go whenever and where ever we want to, I guess some of that is true now that I am semi-retired but it sure was not always like that and our family struggled just like everyone else as the kids were growing up. We did not play golf, take Europen vacations or anything like that, we raised and bred animals of different types because we enjoyed it and that was the way I was raised. Now I am passing that tradition if you will along to the grandkids.

Bottom line is that probably the only place you and I have a major disagreement is in the qualifications required to attend nationals. As a money making deal your approach is probally the best way to go for a registry, but I still believe that quality means something and that this a major way of encouraging quality amoung these little guys and the people that exhibit them. Additionally from what I am seeing your approach is probally going to be the way of things in the current position both registries find themselves.

Further don't take me wrong, the quality of the horses in AMHR are as good as those in AMHA and as far as having fun I totally agree you can't have too much of that.

By the way as I was typing this, Cindy looked over my shoulder and said to tell you that we were both "hopeless" whatever the heck that means and to tell you Hi for her. LOL

See you at the next show and we can continue to agree to dis-agree. LOL

Mary Lou is probally going to barr me from the site for using so much of her band width on these posts. i sure hope not.

:saludando: :aktion033:

 

[Jean_B]

OK - this is just my opinion -- this is a DUMB idea. Personally, I think it is just a way to give AMHA a blood transfusion of cash.

But let's think this through a little. So....hypothetically -- if I had an AMHA mare that had outgrown her papers and registered her with the new registry so that I could "retain her pedigree" (the stated so-called purpose of this proposal) and wanted to breed her to my 31" AMHA stallion, I could not register the offspring with AMHA even though the foal would likely stay "under". Or did I misunderstand something here??

And let's take this a step further. So I have an AMHS mare and an AMHS stallion--and they produce a 31" mature height offspring. What the heck do I do with that? Now we are right back where we started. Now we will have an 'A' and a 'B' division in AMHS. This is totally NUTS

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[hhpminis]

If I may be so presumptuous to butt in on the friendly debate between JW and Belinda and offer my 2 cents worth.

I do not feel that the quality of horses presented at R Nationals drops because of the amount of entries. Yes there are some that come and they may not have a placing horse but for the most part I would say that the classes are filled with some darn nice horses and if you leave a class without a placing, you are in a group with 30 or so other, very nice horses that also got the gate.

What it does allow is the person who just wants to go and feel like they belong to the organization to do so. It is a fun show and those that are not trainers, or "Big Dogs" as we are calling them in this thread, or well to do, can feel they can mingle in the barn, at the ringside tables, ask questions, and not feel as if they are intruding.

What this also does and this is a very important part of the industry, is that those that go and dont place but have a desire to do so will "buy up". They also will see the world from something other than their own backyard. Many first timers walk around with their mouth open as they view the quality and quantity of beautiful horses that gather in one place. They take this home and apply it locally and soon the quality of horse at home increases as well.

Both registries need the "Little Dog" desperately. They are the bulk of our industry whether those with 300 mares want to admit it or not. 300 members with 5 horses out number you in production they just dont get the recognition.

I say try it, lower the requirements for a couple years, see what happens to the numbers, get the little guy interested and involved.

 

[Belinda]

Further don't take me wrong, the quality of the horses in AMHR are as good as those in AMHA and as far as having fun I totally agree you can't have too much of that.
By the way as I was typing this, Cindy looked over my shoulder and said to tell you that we were both "hopeless" whatever the heck that means and to tell you Hi for her. LOL

See you at the next show and we can continue to agree to dis-agree. LOL

:risa8: :risa8: Ok John , do tell Cindy hello and I look forward to seeing you all as always, and yes, Jose is a super person and you could look a million years and not find anyone better suited for you and your family,, He is beyond GREAT with all those Grand Kids, You would think they all belonged to him ..

:

Take care and have a Great Christmas :saludando:

 

[Miniv]

OK - this is just my opinion -- this is a DUMB idea. Personally, I think it is just a way to give AMHA a blood transfusion of cash.

But let's think this through a little. So....hypothetically -- if I had an AMHA mare that had outgrown her papers and registered her with the new registry so that I could "retain her pedigree" (the stated so-called purpose of this proposal) and wanted to breed her to my 31" AMHA stallion, I could not register the offspring with AMHA even though the foal would likely stay "under". Or did I misunderstand something here??

And let's take this a step further. So I have an AMHS mare and an AMHS stallion--and they produce a 31" mature height offspring. What the heck do I do with that? Now we are right back where we started. Now we will have an 'A' and a 'B' division in AMHS. This is totally NUTS

:

:

:

Good point, Jean.

As I recall, this isn't the first time that AMHA has considered something like this.........so I'm not going to get my feathers ruffled YET.

However, I think that starting a side registry could open a can of worms, as Jean has pointed out. And it could also end up costing AMHA even MORE money in the long run. From a business standpoint, I don't see this as a good idea. From a personal one, I also don't see it as a good idea because breeders are already frustrated with having to deal with all the paperwork and fees for both AMHA AND AMHR and this would just ADD to it! So, in their frustration, those breeders may just end up dropping AMHA all together and going over to AMHR exclusively.

I do think that it would be more cost effective and raise more money for AMHA to just adjust their height regulations, either by establishing a "Breeding Stock" classification OR by changing their measuring rule to the withers and raising their height limits to accommodate. Both suggestions were brought up by previous posters. Personally, I'm not sure which I prefer.......but I've always wondered why all other breeds measure from the withers and miniature horses do not.

MA

 

[jlh]

I apologize if this was covered earlier, I've been pulling an all-weekender work schedule.

I'll keep it simple.

I don't want another registry, I just want a cheaper way to bring my 30-32" AMHR horses (most of whom have AMHA in their immediate background, except for that one B horse), into AMHA. I've sold most of them, but right now I've got a mare and a stallion who really need to be in AMHA, and I can't justify spending over $2k. I could justify spending $250 for the mare, and $500 for the boy. if the B mares the boy has bred produce the size & quality babies I expect, I'll have several more in process.

So my suggestion would be a reduced or discounted fee for horses registered with AMHR, if they meet all the other hardship requirements.

has this been suggested?

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Annette you said what I just tried to say on the other thread LOL only of course as always you said it better.

 

[hhpminis]

LOL Lisa I dont know about saying it better.

We need all input, said as many different ways as possible. You are one of the people who I was thinking of when trying to express things. I have been so impressed with your ability to watch. learn and grow in your opinions and goals but at the same time keep it simple and focused on why you are doing this in the first place. Raven has become a wonderful horse woman and by showing at the levels she has, she has grown and bloomed and strived to better all she does. None of this would have happened if you stayed at the local level or if you had to go to 5 shows to attempt to earn points to go to Nationals as I know that is not feasible for you.

For those of you who do not know Lisa, she is a single Mom who would rather wear an old Tshirt and sweats than the latest style as in doing that it means that she can put more money towards her and Ravens passion. She doesn't show horses out of excess but out of her household budget. Although she refuses to acknowledge her self value, many of us that know and love her see her as priceless and a true friend and a definite asset to the industry.

This industry is supported by the ones who get dirt under their fingernails and sweat on their brow, not by the ones who toss money into the kitty. Without those of us willing to do the dirty work, and for some sick reason enjoy it,

: we would not have one foal born.

 

[Lauralee]

Annette, truer words were never spoken~!!!! Lisa is a great gal!

 

[Aggravation Acres]

Maybe this would stop some of the AMHA breeders of having to have their horses measured 3 to 4 times at the auctions to get their horse to measure 34. When the first few were well over 34.

:

Deb

 

[woodnldy]

Well since I am barely getting into this and I do want to show I have found this thread very informative. I have wondered ever since we started why AMHA didn't have a breeding only classification for those that go a little over. I don't mean a showing class at shows either. I am sure that there are many horses out there that have conformations that are fantastic,but at 35 inches they should be pulled from the breeding herd. anyone that has ever got to deep into genetics has found that throw backs do occur in the best of lines. Thats not to say they aren't fantastic animals tho, and a lot of them would throw the smaller sizes with Good conformation. A B division for those animals is a good idea I think. At least you would be able to keep the pedigree's straight for everyone involved. The measuring at the withers would make it all more universal for everyone also. And probably easier also. Oh well, my nichols worth anyway.

 

[anita]

Watched this post from the beginning. I come to the conclusion AMHA should build also a committees

Investigate what's going on behind the scene ? And find out: Is the public blind around the show ring?

Another one: Over 10 years member of AMHA lets hear your valued opinion in written so we get it black of white.

Anita

PS A breeder shall think in generations. After AMHS three generations later is another registry needed

 

[Dona]

I'm sorry, this is really ridiculous and causes me to assume that the proposal is by those who already have an 'oversize' production problem with their herd.

The stated purpose of this proposal is to bring needed money into AMHA. If that were actually the ONLY purpose ....needing money.....the solution is VERY simple .............. [SIZE=18pt]Lower the hardship fees drastically for Under 34" horses! That would create an influx of new registrations and corresponding income[/SIZE]!

If you have an oversize production problem with your herd the solution is simple for that too......GET SMALLER BREEDING STOCK! Quit trying to change the association to suit the wants of a few.

Charlotte

Don't post on controversial posts but this one I just have to...Couldn't have said it better Charlotte. :aktion033: Now lets see..."miniature" means...BIG right? NOT!!!!! Sounds a little sarcastic..sorry but seriously folks.."miniature" means MINIATURE. If I raised ponies I'd market them as ponies. If my 29 inch and 30 inch miniature horses produced a pony foal I'd sell it as a small pony, not look to make some new registry so it looked more legit. Sorry. Are we going to look back in 20 years and find all the true mini's gone - replaced by larger ponies. When I started in mini's I went to a breeder who asked "are you looking for a mini A or B"? Seemed like an ozymoron to me.."hey do you want a mini mini or a big mini" LOL. Call me hardcore but I wouldn't want to buy a 24 inch high Chihuahua either :bgrin (flame away - I'm sure I speak for a lot of people to afraid to post their true thoughts.

: )

I agree with you both...100% :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033:

And I am another who is NOT in favor of adding another Registry for taller miniatures.. :no:

I'm sorry....but adding another Registry for taller Minis sounds like another "money pit" to me. We already have the option of AMHR "B" minis available. All of my minis are under 34", but I register them in both AMHA & AMHR, just in case a foal may grow over 34". The new "proposed" registry would end up with the same problem of minis who outgrow those papers as well.

:

IMHO....AMHA should take care of their problems before trying to add new ones. As many have said before me....they REALLY need to address the current measurement system & make necessary changes, as well as ENFORCE the measuring at shows!

 

[JWC sr.]

I agree with the poster above that said the little guys are the bread and butter of both registries. My wife when she graduated from 1st grade wrote in her program that her mother kept and showed to me a couple of years ago. In it she said she wanted to own a horse farm as she called it when she grew up. She lived in the city at the time and was laughed at for it, when everyone else wanted to be doctors, lawyers and astronsauts. Now looks like she has one to me. If it were not for the people with 3 or 4 horses in the back pasture or only a dream of one day owning one the rest of us would find it very hard to do the things we do. The local clubs are also a part of the backboone of the industry, which is why we continue to support and push for them as much as we do.

:saludando: