Appaloosa Breeding

[tcslc]

I have a mare who has a lot of appaloosa in her pedigree. However, she has no obvious appy characteristics. It seems that I read somewhere that a horse that displays no characteristics can't give birth to an appy foal. If anyone can help me out with this, I'd appreciate it. If anyone knows of a website that talks about this issue, please post the web address, too.

Thanks!

Cindy

 

[rabbitsfizz]

If she were bred to an Appy stallion there would be no reason why she could not have an Appy foal, but Happy is not recessive- in order to get one a parent must be one.

BUT Appy traits can be very minimalistic- a mottled nose and genitals, sclera round the eyes etc- striped hooves- it does not have to be full on covered in spots!!

 

[Cherokee Rose]

I would agree with rabbit..........

 

[MiniHoofBeats]

Here is where I go! I love appies and appy genetics, it is true if your mare is appy bred, she CAN throw appy even if she doesn't have spots! You may not get loud, but she should throw appy when bred to an appy stud. With such minimal characteristics she'll probably throw more like whatever the sire is (solid, pinto, appy).

The Appaloosa Project yahoo group:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/theappaloosaproject/

The NEW Appaloosa Project:

http://www.appaloosaproject.info/

VERY informational!

 

[Darkstar]

She can be carrying the Appy gene and not show any visible signs of being appaloosa. If she is carying the appaloosa gene she can produce an appaloosa foal. The appaloosa gene(s) is not recesive in the tradition sense. It's theorized that there is/are other gene(s) that can repress or mask the appy gene.

Until the appy gene(s) is found and can be tested for most appaloosa color genetics will remain theory.

 

[chandab]

Ok, as long as we're on the subject of Appy traits and throwing appy markings...

I have a solid filly by a leopard appy stallion, she has mottling, scelera, and striped hooves (no other appy markings that I've seen, but she hasn't been clipped this year, she's 2 this month). What are her chances of throwing something with color when bred to my solid, no appy background stallion? Just curious.

Thanks.

 

[Robin1]

Ok, I have a tovero stallion who's grandsire is Orion. My stallion shows NO appy characteristics. I have a 2 yr old colt out of a solid (no appy in background) mare and the colt has appy mottling and is developing some spots, not many but there are a couple that weren't there last year.

:

Robin

 

[MiniHoofBeats]

Is the colt silver? silver has been shown to relay some of the same traits as appy (striped hooves, blotchy skin on nose/eyes) otherwise there has to be appy in his dam or sire and they just weren't registered right. I have not seen appy skip generations (aka come from colored grandparents, solid parents, down to the foals).

Orion is a pintoloosa, I used to believe a pinto filly I had out of him would throw appy but he was her grandsire, too distant. =) I just decided to go straight with appies lol!

 

[Little Wee Horse Farm]

The Appaloosa Horse Club has show classes and special registration for NC (non-characteristic) appys. The horses are not showing it, but they are appy bred & stand a chance of throwing an app. I was surprised many years ago (before I bred apps) when I was watching the national ApHC finals on tv. A halter class had only solid horses and I found out later that they were NC.

Of course, it's impossible to say if a horse has inherited the Lp gene without some hint of it phenotypically until they find that illusive gene. Those are the ones who might be hard to sell as an app, but I've seen those same babies pop out of their color gloom into color bloom - many times.

: Or throw a baby requiring me to wear sunglasses.

 

[CheyAut]

Ok, as long as we're on the subject of Appy traits and throwing appy markings...

I have a solid filly by a leopard appy stallion, she has mottling, scelera, and striped hooves (no other appy markings that I've seen, but she hasn't been clipped this year, she's 2 this month). What are her chances of throwing something with color when bred to my solid, no appy background stallion? Just curious.

Thanks.

Your filly has Lp, which is what gives the appy characteristics. Since she doesn't have a pattern (blanket, ect) she lacks a patn gene. Bred to a solid, you will never get a patterened appy. You have a 50% chance of her passing on the Lp though and getting a foal who has the characteristics, but that's the extent you'll get.

Jessi

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Of course none of this is proven in any way shape or form.

I for one look forward to the Appy "gene" being isolated as it will actually put some proof on the table.

I am pretty sure it will also prove that Apply is not recessive.

No Appy characteristic, no Appy.

My only personal experience of a characteristics only Appy throwing pattern, for example, disproves the Lp/Patn theory.

The mare had characteristics only- striped hooves, sclera (though not really hugely noticeable, certainly no more than I have seen in non Appies) and a little roaning on her backside.

Bred to a solid, no Appy background whatsoever (UK Shetland, Appy never has been accepted or evidenced in this breed) she threw one of the wildest coloured colts I have ever seen.

Bay base, spots on the bay base, then a huge white blanket that had big and small spots of bay and black intermixed, some with haloes!!!

 

[HGFarm]

As an Appy breeder for over 30 years, the studies done so far are not based on 'theory'. They are based on evidence of studying generation after generation for over 40 years and thousands of horses and not only their backgrounds, but what has been produced for generations.

I personally have seen or had, minimal Appaloosas- with characteristics only (no coat pattern) bred to a non Appy produce horses with HUGE blankets and very loud color. And I have seen this more than once. Also, sometimes even the characteristics can be masked somewhat.

The Appy gene is there, even if you have a solid horse that may have an Appy parent or both parents, just because the coat color is not there, does not mean the gene goes away. It can't just 'disappear'.

I highly recommend the latest article by Gene Carr and Bob Lapp that was in the Miniature Horse World- it is the first article of 6 parts. These two guys have quite a list of credentials and Gene is one of the worlds premier Appaloosa breeders. Hard work and studying records, horses, etc... for over 40 years is what their information is based on, not 'theory'. Simply because they cannot find a scientific test for something doesnt make the information not true. It has some great information in the article that may help you out. Both of these guys have pretty much devoted their life to studying this beautiful and mysterious breed.

 

[Lucky-C-Acres-Minis]

Since she doesn't have a pattern (blanket, ect) she lacks a patn gene.

Not necessarily true, she could most definitely have the pattern gene, she's just not expressing it, some appies it takes YEARS before that pattern gene to show up

I have a friend who has a very vivid black leopard appaloosa mare that is by a bay appaloosa stallion and a black appaloosa mare (whose sire was a QH), both of which only have appaloosa characterisitcs. The past couple years they have crossed some of their appy mares (leopards and near leopards) out on quarter horse stallions and were lucky enough to get louder colored foals out of these mares than the foals that were sired by appaloosa stallions! My friend has a mare that has been crossed on the same stallion 4 times now, first time they got a near leopard filly, next year they got a spotted blanket hip colt, third year they got a colt with just characteristics, three socks and a blaze, and this year they ended up with a few spot filly!

: With appies, it's the luck of the draw.. You can breed two of the loudest appys together thinking you'll get all the color in the world and end up with a solid, no visible patterned horse, and then turn around and breed to solid apps together and loads of color! That's why I love the appies, they keep you guessing!

:

 

[HGFarm]

"You can breed two of the loudest appys together thinking you'll get all the color in the world and end up with a solid, no visible patterned horse"

Gee, how well I know THIS story!!! LOL We had great color with the full sized variety and the POAs, but the Minis seem MUCH harder to get color, or at least color at birth. I have had tons born with characteristics that started coloring later- by weaning or shortly after.

One mare I sold is three this year, and is really starting to spot out now. We had a full sized mare that didnt color out til five years old and our neighbor had one that colored at 13 years old!!

:

They do keep you guessing, that's for sure! Just have to love 'em!

:

 

[rabbitsfizz]

The point is that the Appy gene can and does "just go away" there is no more reason why it should be present than, for example, Tobiano.

A truly solid horses bred to another will not throw a Tobiano- why would you think such a horse will throw an Appy- it is subject to the same rules.

As I said I shall be overjoyed when there is finally some testing to be had- it cannot be that far off, now, surely???

I do think Minis, with all their mixtures of colours, dilutes and patterns, do tend to "muddy the waters" when we are trying to find out what colour/pattern they are- as with everything they are almost a law unto themselves!!!