Big Horse Dilemma

[Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too]

I got an email from Daisy's previous owner and she asked if next spring they could have her bred for a 2007 foal.

She said they would cover everything, repro check, stud fee, have her foaled out a professional facility, any and all veterinary required and pay her board from breeding until the foal is weaned.

Here's the history. The daughter raised her from a foal and the reason they sold her was because she is in college, she's a sophmore at the UW, and just doesn't have the time to spend with her at this time in her life, but has always wanted a foal someday from Daisy.

While I'm not anti breeding I do realize the inherent risks involved and the inconvenience of having a foal tagging along, all cuteness aside. Daisy is in the prime of her life but I don't expect to campaign her seriously on the show circuit. To me she is a pleasure horse first and foremost.

Is this kind of thing not unusual in the breeding world? It would be neat to see her have a foal and not have to bear any of the responsibilty but I'm also concerned this whole thing could turn into a can of worms, hence my dilemma. Should I even consider this or not? Will love to hear your responses to this one. Thanks!

 

[chevycouple]

I know of people leasing out mares for breeding purposes. My grandmother was called by a friend of hers about my grandma's mare for breeding we did it and it ended badly. We ended up with a dead colt and a mare that barely made it who was never breedable after that and was unbroke. If you decide to do this check on insurance options. Some people do this deal with a breed back option but that is usually when the deal is with a stallion owner. You could give them the option of an egg donation at there expence. Well anyway there is my experience to help you make your decision.

 

[Marty]

The daughter raised her from a foal and the reason they sold her was because she is in college, she's a sophmore at the UW, and just doesn't have the time to spend with her at this time in her life, but has always wanted a foal someday from Daisy

First thing that comes to mind is that if the daughter didn't have the time for Daisy, when would she find the time to raise a foal? But that's not here nor there.

Sorry not me, not a chance. It's your mare now and she would be put at risk like any bred mare is put at risk. No matter how many contracts and agreements you have, you would still be the one to carry the burden of Daisy thoughout her pregnancy. And suppose she aborts? Then there is the mare stare and then the delivery of course, * even by a pro it's risky* then the foaling, then the weaning, then the drying up the milky. In other words, you'd be tying up your mare for a year and a half with "their wishes" and I wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole.

It would be a different story if you bred Daisy and then agreed to sell them the foal.

 

[nootka]

I am agreeing with Marty, wondering why they want a foal when they didn't have time for the mare, and why they couldn't either find a similarly bred mare to Daisy and/or do embryo transfer.

It is a risk, and there is the inconvenience, she will be out of commission likely for at least a month or two while she has the baby and it is young.

Maybe you need to discuss this scenario a little further before you make your final decision, but I would be leaning towards no, myself.

Liz M.

 

[ChrystalPaths]

Shirley, re read your post towards the end. My gut tells me worms may be an understatement. She is your baby now, your choice. Me I wouldn't do it. You just got the awesome saddle and have great plans for riding, a pregnancy would interfere with your long range plans for her.

If she is in college when will she have time for the foal? THEY take 10 times more time that an adult. JMHO

 

[Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too]

I am agreeing with Marty, wondering why they want a foal when they didn't have time for the mare, and why they couldn't either find a similarly bred mare to Daisy and/or do embryo transfer.

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Maybe I wasn't clear but she doesn't have time for a horse right now being in college but according to my calculations, the foal won't be ready to turn over to her until weaning which will be 2 years from now when she graduates. Actually, I think it was very adult of her to think of Daisy first and sell her rather than letting her languish away in a pasture or worry about the care she may or may not get from some lessor for two years. I believe we had a horror story on the forum not long ago of a leased horse being neglected while another young lady, I think, was also in college.

In other words, you'd be tying up your mare for a year and a half with "their wishes" and I wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole. 

It would be a different story if you bred Daisy and then agreed to sell them the foal.

Marty I guess I'm not grasping the difference in this statement at all. If so, I'd be then one bearing the burden of the vet bills, stud fee, mare care and I don't have the means to send her to a professional foaling facility, and then sell her the resulting foal although that does sound like a great deal for her.

People breed mares constantly without near this much protection, taking the risk of foaling out themselves even though they have no experience, producing foals with no guarantee of it's future or what kind of owner will end up with it, and probaby putting the horse down because they don't have the means to handle a serious medical situation. You see it on this board all the time. Certainly she could get another horse much cheaper but it's an emotional request because she raised Daisy and wants her baby, not just any horse. I can relate to that, just haven't decided if I can OK this without a lot of thought and input from all aspects.

Believe me I'm totally aware of the inherent risks to foaling having had to raise an orphan foal when my mare died shortly after his birth due to an undetected partially retained piece of placenta a vet missed and I certainly don't disagree that many assurances would need to be in place.

Thanks Chevycouple for the thought about embryo transfer, that definately might be the best option here and sounds like would have the least risk, should I decide we could proceed with something like this. She would still have to come up with a surrogate mare though.

 

[Shari]

If you really like your mare don't do it.

One of my friends lost her prized imported mare doing that. She hadn't planned on breeding her last year for this years foal. But she did at the request of another, Both the mare and foal died.

If these folks want a foal, there are plenty out there that need homes.

 

[wendy4mini]

This is one of those situations that requires alot of thought by both parties and a good attorney. As previous mentioned, insurance for mortality, major med and loss of use would be the first requirement. Also, cost of feed, supplements, vet care, foaling expense, foal care until weaning and what age of weaning. And that's just if a foal is the result. What happens while the mare is being bred (loss of use to you) and if in a foal isn't produced do you try again the following year or is any money refunded. I have seen these situation run smoothing and everyone is happy and I have seen this same situation result in a BIG lawsuit that tore life long friends apart. I would discuss everything with the previous owners and then only you know what is best. Good luck!

 

[Pepipony]

Nope, wouldnt allow it. If they had wanted a baby that badly then they either shouldnt have sold the mare or should have leased her out. Sounds like this is an afterthought and puts you in a VERY awkward position. Doesnt matter what your plans are for her or how the baby would interfere, she is YOUR horse now and you do not have to explain anything to anyone and you shouldnt feel badly about it

 

[Jill]

I seriously doubt I would do it. She's your mare and if things go wrong, even if they have plenty of money, money cannot fix everything.

 

[Jacquee']

Well, I will give you my experience, for what it is worth! (Probably exactly what you are paying for it!

)

I bought a mare that was already bred and the deal was that the foal would not be my foal. The previous owner had the ownership of the foal. I really wanted the mare so I agreed. BTW, this was a big horse...... not a mini.

First, I could not ride the mare because she was going to foal, and was in poor shape (in my opinion). In fact I thought she looked horrible, so I was pouring the feed to her, trying to get her ready to nurse a foal. The birth occured fine, the mare was a little sore, and had some slight tearing, but basically she was fine. However, the Devil Colt had now arrived. And now, I could not ride my mare because of the DC, so once again she stayed at home. I also had to halter-break and try and civilise this holy terror that my sweet mare had somehow produced. He was a handful........ he broke a couple of halters in very odd accidents (while I was right there!!! I did NOT leave a halter on him!!!!!) which got a little expensive, but fortunately he never got so much as a scratch. Then the DC got sold....... and the next thing I knew, I was now a PR person for the new owner, who expected new photos and intricate descriptions of the cute behaviour of her new colt, every day by e-mail. We compromised and I only did this every 3 or 4 days. Then I had to pull hairs from the DC for DNA testing, and THEN I had to train him to load. YIKES! If I had thought halter-breaking was a challenge........ FINALLY the shipper showed up (5 days early, and we did not have the Coggins results back yet) got the DC loaded (I had to do it, the shipper was not competent) and then (to REALLY make me feel good) the shipper asked me how to get to the state the horse was going to.

I have to say, the new owner is one of the nicest people on the planet, but I sure was glad to not have to be making long-distance calls to her every few hours (as I did towards the end there) and it took up an enormous amount of time taking photos constantly and writing her all the time. And remember - if you decide to do this, YOU will have to civilise whatever foal your mare produces, because YOU are the one who will have to worm, trim etc. etc. the new addition, until the foal is old enough to go to the new home. In my case, the new owner bought me a new halter (to replace the 2 the DC had broken) and bought one for him - which he ALSO broke, right before his trip, so I had to send MY new halter with him. So I now have three broken halters!!!

Oh well. I don't regret doing it, but boy, it was a lot of time and trouble, all for someone else, and I received exactly nothing for it. So, if it were me, I would think REALLY HARD about doing it again!!!

I would think REALLY HARD about it for 5 seconds and say _NO_.

 

[Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too]

...And remember - if you decide to do this, YOU will have to civilise whatever foal your mare produces, because YOU are the one who will have to worm, trim etc. etc. the new addition, until the foal is old enough to go to the new home. In my case, the new owner bought me a new halter (to replace the 2 the DC had broken) and bought one for him - which he ALSO broke, right before his trip, so I had to send MY new halter with him. So I now have three broken halters!!! 

Oh well. I don't regret doing it, but boy, it was a lot of time and trouble, all for someone else, and I received exactly nothing for it. So, if it were me, I would think REALLY HARD about doing it again!!! 

I would think REALLY HARD about it for 5 seconds and say _NO_. 

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I'm sorry Jacquee that's funny and yes I'm laughing

Devil Colt--that'd be my luck.

Yep, it'd be a thankless job and my only payment would be free board for a year and a half which equates to $5400.00 where I'm moving her to Sept. 30th, plus trims, vaccs, supplements for that time period etc., as well, it still may not be worth it in the long run. Only restriction on riding would be the first 60 days to hopefully prevent absorbsion and after the 8th month which is pretty usual for a bred mare anyway. From what I know of them, I like these folks a lot. I certainly wouldn't consider it at all if they were jerks or irresponsible types.

I wouldn't have a problem with socializing a foal having done it more times than I can count. Wouldn't mind doing pics and emails as I keep in touch with all my animals previous owners> My eldest cat's breeder I've kept in touch via Christmas card for almost 20 years now. I'm definately going to take my time to really ponder this over. She wouldn't be bred until next March or April anyway so this won't be a snap decision whichever way I decide.

 

[SunQuest]

The best solution is embrio transfer. This is very common on prised mares or mares that are being campaigned. Your mare would donate the egg, and then it would be used to become an embrio and then a serogate mare would be used to carry the fetus to term. They would have to find the mare to use and they would be responsible for all costs without the risk of you loosing your mare. Please check into this option as it would be a way for you to not have to risk your mare for someone else's sake.

As far as the girl not selling you your mare... Sometimes one does things that they must even though they don't want to and it breaks one's heart. I have been there on several occasions. And sometimes one is so heart broken that they search the world for the horse they sold just to try and get it back. Wouldn't surprise me if the girl that is in college is experiencing this. I know when I was in college I sold by beloved Arab and to this day I am so sorry that I had to. While that choice was and still is right for that time of my life, it hurts every day when I think about him....