Clipping vs. Shedding naturally to determine color?

[hsrascal]

I clipped my yearling, and now I'm wondering if I should have waited for a natural shed. It's been grossly hot and I knew he was suffering but I have a dilemma.

I can't figure out what color he is and I would like to send in his papers soon. He has a lot of gray hairs in his coat, but is genetically not able to be gray. His mom is blue roan (sire: chestnut pinto), but if it is roaning it seems minimal.

Did I make a mistake clipping? How long will it be before a natural coat comes in so I can figure out what he wants to be?

He does have darker hair around his non-bald side, which makes me think he is roan.. but the white ticking is even throughout and is on his face on the cheeks and forehead.

Also, does a healthy looking shiny coat eventually come out or is the velvety look stuck until late summer's shed?

Parents:

 

[Maple Hollow Farm]

Just from that picture I would say he is a black pinto-- either overo or splash or both/ probably tobiano as well/ with sabino (which causes the roaning)

Thats my guess LOL!

 

[hsrascal]

Oh darn you MHF!!!

I didn't even remember that was a possibility! I just ran the color calculator again and that is possible.

How long will it be before a black coat would come in? That would be stunning!

 

[Mona]

I agree...black pinto.

 

[Danielleee]

Black pinto is my guess also

 

[hsrascal]

Would any of these pictures change your mind? I think the other possibility is bay.

 

[chandab]

Even with the brownish cast to his fuzzy coat, I think I agree with the others on black. Foal coats tend to be a little different than the adult coat, its basically "baby camoflage".

I don't think it'll take terribly long for his coat to grow long enough for you to see his natural coat color.

 

[disneyhorse]

I'd say bay or black pinto... Genetic testing can tell you for sure. Sometimes, relying on what they "look like" isn't as accurate as DNA.

 

[ohmt]

Oh he is definitely a black pinto-specifically black with splash and sabino (giving you the roaning and ticking). Could definitely be tobiano, but I don't see anything that specifically points to it, just sabino and splash. Could be LWO too. No agouti (so not bay).

 

[Maple Hollow Farm]

Oh he is definitely a black pinto-specifically black with splash and sabino (giving you the roaning and ticking). Could definitely be tobiano, but I don't see anything that specifically points to it, just sabino and splash. Could be LWO too. No agouti (so not bay).

The white in the tail still makes me think tobiano, that is a minimal tobi characteristic. Have had/seen solid horses with white only in the tail that test tobi. So long as the white in the tail is actually white and not just blonde hairs. The young foal pic looks like definitely white so that is what I am going off of

 

[Lewella]

The white in the tail is the result of sabino in this case as is the weird black shade. Sabino can cause a lightening of the base color. Given his markings I'd suspect his sabino is the testable Sb1 type. All of my well expressed Sb1's have tails like that.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

He is a black pinto- black's are all that colour when clipped. There are bound to be one or two exceptions but he is not one of them"

 

[rabbitsfizz]

MHF he also has four white legs which often goes with Tobiano but his pattern is SO far form anything typical of Tobiano that it is a long way form the first thing that springs to mind!! Splash, for sure, absolutely Sabino, possibly LWO (always test for that if there is any chance of his being used for breeding.) And then, possibly, but far from typically, Tobiano.

 

[Lil Eowyn]

I'd say a black bay pinto probably.

 

[Maple Hollow Farm]

I agree his markings are not typical for tobi, but just throwing it into the mix since the dam is a visual tobiano so it is a possibility.

 

[Lewella]

With the other white patterns the tobiano would be putting body white on if he were tobiano. More patterns generally = more white.

 

[Margo_C-T]

OK, a couple of questions..... I had a gelding whose body color was VERY similar to this colts'. His dam,now 30 yrs. old, is a silver bay w/ sabino characteristics(body roaning, bald face, white on lower lip, typical high, point-on-front of leg markings on hinds, but not enough to qualify as 'pinto'markings, one blue eye), creamy white mane and tail-who was originally listed on her AMHA papers as 'chestnut'. His sire was a very straighforward Palomino. Maternal grandsire was 'Tattoo', who in pics appears a straightforward black overo, possibly w/ splash?, and maternal granddam was a silver bay w/ minimal white on face. Paternal grandsire and granddam were both Palomino. I personally have seen sire, dam, maternal granddam, and photos of maternal grandsire, and both paternal grandparents(paternal grandsire was Dels Cowboy). I came to conclude that my gelding was a silver/black w/ 'total' and even sabino roaning over ALL of his body, including mane and tail. He did have other sabino characteristics...bald face, white on lower lip, white sclera showing, 'spots', some quite small, of pink skin(i.e, white hair )around his anus and muzzle, and two 'disconnected' white spots on two lower legs, typical sabino leg markings behind, and a sizeable pink skin spot on his penis.

So...could the colt in this thread's sire, from his pic, actually be a silver bay, NOT a chestnut? How would sabino roaning be affected by the fact that this colt's dam does appear to be a 'true' roan? It appears to me that his 'roaning' is 'overall' and not 'true' roaning...so would be from sabino??

Finally, would my gelding have qualified as a 'pinto' due to the disconnected and/or the spotting on his penis? Not neccessarily to qualify for registration under current PtHA rules, but genetically?

Not trying to hijack this thread; but I saw a distinct similarity in overall body color, even when clipped, between this colt and my gelding , and it raised several questions in my mind.

Margo

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Lewella why would the tobiano be affected by the other patterns? I can't see that ...

 

[hsrascal]

OK, a couple of questions..... I had a gelding whose body color was VERY similar to this colts'. His dam,now 30 yrs. old, is a silver bay w/ sabino characteristics(body roaning, bald face, white on lower lip, typical high, point-on-front of leg markings on hinds, but not enough to qualify as 'pinto'markings, one blue eye), creamy white mane and tail-who was originally listed on her AMHA papers as 'chestnut'. His sire was a very straighforward Palomino. Maternal grandsire was 'Tattoo', who in pics appears a straightforward black overo, possibly w/ splash?, and maternal granddam was a silver bay w/ minimal white on face. Paternal grandsire and granddam were both Palomino. I personally have seen sire, dam, maternal granddam, and photos of maternal grandsire, and both paternal grandparents(paternal grandsire was Dels Cowboy). I came to conclude that my gelding was a silver/black w/ 'total' and even sabino roaning over ALL of his body, including mane and tail. He did have other sabino characteristics...bald face, white on lower lip, white sclera showing, 'spots', some quite small, of pink skin(i.e, white hair )around his anus and muzzle, and two 'disconnected' white spots on two lower legs, typical sabino leg markings behind, and a sizeable pink skin spot on his penis.

So...could the colt in this thread's sire, from his pic, actually be a silver bay, NOT a chestnut? How would sabino roaning be affected by the fact that this colt's dam does appear to be a 'true' roan? It appears to me that his 'roaning' is 'overall' and not 'true' roaning...so would be from sabino??

Finally, would my gelding have qualified as a 'pinto' due to the disconnected and/or the spotting on his penis? Not neccessarily to qualify for registration under current PtHA rules, but genetically?

Not trying to hijack this thread; but I saw a distinct similarity in overall body color, even when clipped, between this colt and my gelding , and it raised several questions in my mind.

Margo

No idea on the silver bay - I don't have AMHA online to do the pedigree research for that one

Do you have pictures of your boy to share?

MHF he also has four white legs which often goes with Tobiano but his pattern is SO far form anything typical of Tobiano that it is a long way form the first thing that springs to mind!! Splash, for sure, absolutely Sabino, possibly LWO (always test for that if there is any chance of his being used for breeding.) And then, possibly, but far from typically, Tobiano.

My priorities are to test for LWO and Roan. I think Sabino1 and Splash are pretty good bets. Tobiano is definitely possible, but not sure I want to pay $30 to find out for sure.

I'm cheap. I know.

 

[Lewella]

Lewella why would the tobiano be affected by the other patterns? I can't see that ...

Tobiano marking shape and size is influenced by other patterns. A general rule of thumb - the more white patterns present, the more white the horse overall. The tobiano parent in this instance is very obviously also sabino. Even if we could see no face markings the shape of the edges on the body markings are a dead givaway that this horse is not just tobiano. Tobiano creates clean edged markings, even tobianos with heavy paw prints have clean edges on their spots. Sabino is adding the lacy effect. Splash changes the shape of the markings on the body of tobianos as well - KD's Sir Gentry - google him - is a great example of what happens when tobiano and splash are together. Notice the V shape of the marking on his back - that is a classic indicator of Splash and Tobiano interacting.