Farm Production Sales and Group Farm Sales/Auctions...

[SWA]

Hi There,

This is just an observation that I perceive is happening, based on what I've seen and heard in comments when folks respond to my sales offerings. So, please forgive me if I am way off base, as it's just an observation I've been pondering over lately. )

I've heard lots of comments from lots of folks in general conversations on how our breed's industry is in a deep lull right now, some blaming the economy and such, others say it's just on that spin of the cycle and it'll come back around. I do agree (in part) with both those views too, LOL. But, another thing that I've seen is happening too, that no one else seems to notice or dare to comment on is how it "seems to me anyways", that Production Sales & Auctions seem to be at play, at least from my perspective anyways. Again, please forive me if I am way off base, I'm not well versed in the "sales" portion of our breed's industry, as I've only ever sold ONE mini in well over 10 years. And the only other minis I've sold beside that one, was way back when we had to sell most our horses to move to Maine 10 years ago, this month. And that was the dam, sire & brother to my two gray mares that I still have from my very first two breedings way back then.

(Side note: Our very first minis EVER were a package deal of 3, a Stallion (Jokers Apollo), a Mare (Komokos Frosted Mini Feet) and their first colt. We bought them in 1995, I believe it was. The colt had his applications but wasn't officially registered yet, so we were able to register him under our name, but he was not of our breedings. The people we bought them from was calling the colt "Colonel", so when we sent his papers in, I think we named him "Colonel Apollo's Frosted Joker".

Then the following year, in 1996, we had our very first foal that was of our breeding, Seminoles Frosted Desert Rose, and then the next year after that, in 1997, we had her sister, Seminoles English Rose. Then "life happened" and we ended up having to sell most our horses (we had biggies too at the time) to move to Maine in August of 1998. We kept our two mini fillies, and our one QH filly. After our move to Maine, is when we acquired the HB ponies in Nov. 1999, and at that time was only the one mare, Fort Storey CT's First Classic Creation, and she was already in foal at the time, but once he was born under us, he too was registered in our name, (SWA Classic Tross' Tuff E Nuff), as we owned his dam at the time of his birth on October 3, 2000. We've since had only one other foal by her too, on Dec. 7, 2003, SWA Semper Fi Speedy, but we have had no more at all after that, with regard to our HB ponies. Although they are nothing to do with the minis part of our farm program, I only mentioned them, as the only other 2 foals we have had over the last 10 years, aside from our minis.

Aside from our very first two minis of our breedings back in '96 & '97, we have since had only one other mini foal, and that was SWA Champagne N Roses, born in March of 2004. She is the 3rd and LAST of ANY of our mini breedings...until our very first new foal crop coming next year, 2009.

It has been brought to my attention that there is another farm out there using the prefix "Seminoles", but that is NOT US. Yes, we were the first ones, to my knowledge anyways, to use the name Seminoles with our very first two fillies mentioned above. But, we were new to minis at the time and didn't know we would need to reserve our name as a farm prefix, until our time in Maine. By then, someone else had already reserved the name "Seminoles", so we were left with having to go with our farm name initials, of "SWA", and that's what we've done ever since. The only foals we've ever had since then though, was the one mini filly and the 2 HB colts. So aside from our very first two mini fillies bearing the name "Seminoles" at the beginning of their name, NO OTHERS of that name prefix is of OUR breedings. I don't know who owns it now, but I'm sure AMHR & AMHA must have that information if anyone might need to know, LOL. This too though, is not the point of my topic, just mentioning as a background to our farm, as we've had lots of inquiries of this prefix name when folks respond to our sales offerings. So just clearing the air on all that, so to speak. At least I hope.

All in all, our grand total of foals of ANY horses of OUR breedings are: 1 QH foal, 2 HB foals & 3 Minis, in all our years ever, period. So our experience in breedings/sales, etc. is somewhat limited, in comparison to most others here, I'm sure.)

That said...getting back to my point of topic (at least I'll try, LOL.)...

I keep reading where folks say our breed's industry is in a lull, where prices of good quality foals and adult minis too, are very low right now. I'm not seeing that, as least not when I visit folks farm websites. I see prices posted if $2500 and MUCH HIGHER on just about every single website. I understand though, these prices are if you buy these horses directly from the sales offerings of the farm's website itself. Some may lower slightly to make the sale, but still, I'm hearing most sales result in the thousands. For EXCEPTIONAL QUALITY, that is. However, the prices are as most are seeing, lower price for lower quality, conformationally speaking, etc. And also, farms with lots and lots of "boys", I do see are lowering their prices and also offering incentives of pricing with gelding contracts. But, that's a good thing though, so not knocking sales of so many boys, that are selling lower priced and with gelding incentives, etc., so please don't take it that way.

What I am seeing though for the most part, is well priced good quality horses of $2500.00 and upwards. Some with no training, nor show experience, just good decent and ethical breeding. So their prices are commanding as such, as it should be.

However...and here is the point of my topic... (I think)...

When I price my offerings in commensurate to the general population of other folks of our industry, in what "I" perceive as equal or similar quality as their sales offerings, and then get folks inquiring of my offerings, asking if I'll be "Holding out till a local farm group auctions comes around...or will I be holding out for a large foal crop to have productions sale".... it just makes me wonder...why are they asking such questions???

First off, no, I don't think I will ever have a foal crop large enough to ever warrant a "Farm Production Sale", personally. But, still it just makes me wonder "why" would that be a point of question in anyone's inquiry??? Same with participating in a "Group Farm Sales/Auction"???

So finally, I got the nerve up to "ask back"... why those specific questions in your inquiry of my offerings???

Some never responded, but ONE did, and I'm thankful for their honesty.

They replied simply... "Because that's where they can usually get THE LOWER PRICE for THE BETTER QUALITY, as opposed to buying directly from the SAME REPUTABLE FARM as priced off their personal website's or any saleboard listings.

So, with that...I have to wonder and ask... Are "Farm Production Sales" and/or "Group Farm Sales/Auctions" actually helping our industry or are they actually hurting it, with regard to the over all market value?

Your thoughts, please???

Warmest appreciations,

Tanya

 

[SWA]

POSTING IN AFTERTHOUGHT: I do see where Farm Production Sales could actully help, in part.

But, I think it might actually be moreso the Group Farm Sales/Auctions, type venues where folks are gearing more toward looking for buying at "auction prices", as opposed to Individual Farms listings as Market Value.

What are your thoughts?

PS... I hope this isn't supposed to be one of those non-discussable taboo subjects where I've just put my foot in my mouth?

I was just wondering, is all...

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I have been wondering the same thing actually. I'm not saying this is happening, but I would hate for us (as an industry) to get to the point where farm "production" sales are the same as the auction down the street. Yes, due to the ecomony and predictable cyclicle factors, the prices on horses may be down from where it was a few years ago or even last year, but that's not what I'm talking about. I mean the "big" farms (and we all know who those are) that have had or will have large sales in the future, are they letting some of those horses go instead of no-saleing them and waiting for the worthy price to come along? This is just something that has been on my mind.

 

[Marty]

Tanya, I've heard some awesome things about some of these production sales; that they are a great place to shop for the horse of your dreams, and to meet new people. I'd love to attend one someday. However, I honestly do not think farm production sales have that much effect in the grand scheme of things. I don't think it matters one way or the other. Surely some people may wait all year round to attend one of them and look forward to it as an "event" but I also don't think it hinders private sales that much if any. If a buyer wants what you have, production sale or not, he's going to buy what he wants. He may wait to see what turns up at the production sale first, but when its all said and done, the buyer will purchase the horse he wants no matter who has it for sale.

 

[RockRiverTiff]

I'd say whoever asked you if you're going to be sending your horses to auction is likely a tire kicker. In my opinion, it's the sellers--not the auctions themselves--that have created this issue by posting ads where they threaten to send their horses to auction if no one buys them. Why would anyone pay the asking price for those horses when their owner is essentially saying they're ready to dump them off at the next auction?

But on the topic at hand, I'd like to point out that there is a VERY big difference between local auctions and the production sales the bigger farms hold. These production sales are far from a dumping ground for horses. The farms that hold them sometimes advertise as much as a year in advance with major ads in the registry publications and extensive marketing online too. As Marty mentioned, these sales are more like events than one-day auctions. While the prices on average are somewhat lower than those on their sites, it also gives a new set of buyers the opportunity to acquire horses of a quality they might not otherwise have been able to afford, which helps everyone! In fact, way back when production sales were sometimes the only way the general public could get a shot at excellent horses. I still have a couple NFC sales books, and the quality of each horse was excellent (so were the prices!). In my opinion, these breeders are not creating a market problem so long as there IS a market for their horses--which btw they themselves work very hard to create.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Just to clarify, I am NOT trying to be critical of anyone having a production sale. I'm saying that lately (the last year) I've seen some horses at production sales going for less than I ever thought they would. My suggestion (or question really) was why don't they no-sale more of them and just wait for the right buyer to come along? I realize these are large productions and maybe by the time the sale comes around and all that hard work and money has been put into the event that it's easier to accept a couple thousand less for a particular horse than you normally would have because at least then it's gone.

 

[SWA]

Hi there,

Yes, these points, with regard to "Farm Production Sales" were made to me privately promptly after my initial posting of this thread.

Hence, my statement in afterthought above.

I didn't want to elaborate on that, as it was addressed to me privately, so felt it appropriate to leave it at that, privately.

However, thank you all again for reitterating here too, how Farm Production Sales are far different from general auction type venues. I do see now, how they can truly benefit the industry overall.

My concern still though, is the auctions themselves. When folks post that they've reserved some for an upcoming "Group Farm Sale/Auction" thing, (unless they sell before then), and then we all read here how the prices of such events always result in VERY LOW prices, how is it then, that these type events are suppose to help the industry and not hinder?

 

[bingo]

My suggestion (or question really) was why don't they no-sale more of them and just wait for the right buyer to come along? I realize these are large productions and maybe by the time the sale comes around and all that hard work and money has been put into the event that it's easier to accept a couple thousand less for a particular horse than you normally would have because at least then it's gone.

I would guess the answer is no matter what the size or reputation of the farm or the quality of the horses they are selling they are still having to purchase feed and hay which has increased a lot inthe past year. Vet bills, farrier bills, the same issues the rest of us are having and the reason why many are selling out or choosing not to breed as much. Accepting a couple thousand less on a horse is in many cases cheaper then keeping that horse for another year.

 

[SWA]

I would guess the answer is no matter what the size or reputation of the farm or the quality of the horses they are selling they are still having to purchase feed and hay which has increased a lot inthe past year. Vet bills, farrier bills, the same issues the rest of us are having and the reason why many are selling out or choosing not to breed as much. Accepting a couple thousand less on a horse is in many cases cheaper then keeping that horse for another year.

Hmmm, ok, that does make sense.

So, all in all, is it that it just all comes back to economic issues, when getting right down to it then?

That folks are just resorting to letting them go for less, pretty much by "force of economics"?

I do feel that is a factor, definately, but it can't be the whole of it. I still can't help but feel that the common knowledge that folks can and WILL get them for less at auction/sale type venues, then the buyers are the ones who will hold out for times of such opportunities for their purchases...and not even consider buying from the farm/breeders individually. Does this make sense, or am I way off base?

(Not counting, of course, those more reputable big farm production sale events

).

 

[shelia]

I do believe right now they are hurting the business, but it is only temporary I hope. I look at the quality that is at those sales, and what they are going for, I find myself unwilling to pay what I have paid in the past.

Of course now that all of the great deals are out there I can't buy them. (Well, as many as I would like.) I have picked up some great deals locally and didn't have to spend money on shipping. I think it is a great opportunity for those who can get them. it is sad for the farms knowing it cost more to get some of them there than what they will even get for them. I also see that some farms who are holding there prices firm are still selling too. How's that for a definate maybe?

 

[JMS Miniatures]

What I don't get about some of these sales is they sell so many foals/horses cause they say they need to make room. But yet they continue to breed for so many foals and continue on these sales. Yes these sells do help buyers and sellers, but what does that do to the breed? Most of these sales are put on by good breeders who know what they are doing, atleast that part of it is good, but why is there a need to breed for so many?

 

[shelia]

I think we will see fewer sales next year and even fewer horses at the sales they do have. It sure seemed to be a lot more work than it would have been worth to them. I think the horse market will correct itself.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

Tanya you've been around longer than I have and every year or so there is a bunch of breeders 'getting out' of minis and people think the sky is falling, and there is a bunch of new $$ people to take their place.

Productions sales aren't very common on the West Coast - I can only think of a couple places that have them, the same goes for auctions - they seem to be a dismal failure out here. Which is a bit unfortunate, as I think a well handled mini only auction would be beneficial to some smaller breeders, etc.

There use to be advertised in the World for production sales or had group farm sales - if they're still having them I haven't seen the usual advertising.

Just by observation if the production sale is run along the lines of an auction it really depends on the economy and what is being offered. I know one stallion I bought at an auction I paid more than his sale price on the ranch, but I hadn't seen him in person. That same auction had a few horses that shocked me in their prices - both high and low. It really can depend on if people are going for a specific horse or just going for a bargain - IMHO!

Right now seems to be a buyers market in general - between the hay prices, gas prices and uncertainty with our economy - let alone the upcoming election - it's a great time for a buyer all the way around! For sellers it's either cut those prices to get stock moved or hang tight and hope things turn around. I know I'm planning more geldings/less breeding for '09 and crossing fingers that hay prices do not continue to go up ($17 for grass hay and $14.75 for alfalfa this week) much more through winter (my feed store said a dollar max, but who knows!

I'm truly hoping the people that don't hang on the forum and breed anything to anything year in year out - are feeling the pinch and will slow or stop! That would be fabulous. It won't happen, but I can hope.

 

[muffntuf]

Tanya,

Has it hurt our industry? I don't know. But I only wonder on one thing, I know the annual spring and fall auction for miniature/ponies in our state does not draw the same quality as the production farm sales now. But we don't have but one production sale in the state.

I belive this takes the better quality horses and ponies out of the reach of those who are beginners in the industry.

I started my farm from an auction. Outside of my home bred ponies, I only purchased one Private Treaty, so most are from the auction. But now when I go, I don't see anything that is really worth going for.

So???

 

[SWA]

Hello,

I just wanted to post my thanks to those who were kind enough to add their thoughts here, as well as to me privately. I also want to say thank you to all who posted, for helping to keep this a "kindly toned" thread by your considerate and respectful comments. Some points made here have helped me learn a great deal more toward at least a somewhat better understanding of how things can better benefit the "breeding/sales" aspects of our breed's industry. Much I've not thought of, until your points of view help me see the broader varying perspectives of those with greater experiences posted here, and privately. I've also learned, that every "potentially" good aspect can also have it's downsides too, when other varying factors come into play, (ie. Economy, area of sale/auction event, time of year, etc.). Again, thank you so much for helping me reach a better understanding through this learning process for me.

As I've stated in my original post here, my experience in the "breeding/sales" realm of our breed is extremely limited, and although I've been "in minis" for several years, I've not held this particular area as a personal priority over the years, especially the last 8 or so, of all our 13 years "in minis". It was just last year, that we purchased our very first stallion (since our "original" stallion, from long, long ago). Our new guy is also our very first AMHA/AMHR stallion, and we acquired him along with our very first ever AMHA/AMHR double registered mare too. And with her, having just embarked on our very first show season just THIS year, in well over 10 years, (since our son used to show back when he was little).

It is with these 2 newly acquired A/R stallion & mare, and our original 3 "R" only mares, that we are just now revising our priorities for our family and farm's new direction in life with our horses, (hopefully, and finally) as a "Breeding/Show" Family Farm. (It has ALWAYS, since day one of our time "in minis", been a long sought dream to be a breeding/showing farm, just was always put on the "back burner" in priority, so to speak, with regard to other priorities in life. At least in these last 8 years or so. However, as with all things in life, things change, and we are finally at a place now where we can seriously consider to "revisit" those dreams of ours from so long ago. So with that, I'm just exploring thoughts as they come to mind as we receive inquiries of our current offerings. All your helpful views stated have been a great learning tool as we strive to "learn as we go", from here forward.

Thanks again, so much for all your help in that.

Warmest appreciations,

Tanya

 

[JWC sr.]

,Hey folks,

just wanted bring this topic back to the front of the forum, as it a subject I am interested in.

Did anyone pay attention and/or watch the Reece family farms sale and the horses that went thru it from Toni and Peas farm. Also there were a number of consignments from other farms. Indeed there were some deals to be had on good quality horses, but all in all across the board the horses sold from a high of 25,000 for a stallion and 15,400 for a mare down to a few of P.O.'s on some horses.

I personally was glad to see folks P.O. some of the horses that did not bring wht the owners thought they should have. This says to me that the owners were not willing to just dump the horses and have faith in the market and feel they will have a chance to sell them later at a more appropriate price.

I think the sale was a good one where buyers got some really neat horses at reasonable prices and the sellers were well represented also. . Which is a win win for everyone

 

[muffntuf]

I am going to be bold and ask the question - Has anyone that has posted and wonder how auctions work - have you worked a couple auctions so you understand how they are run? I did. I put a summer in working several auction houses and auctions in my area. I have drawn some interesting conclusions about how and why auctions are run.

The one opinion I would like to state is - if it is a reputable auction company with reputable farms cosigning, then it is maybe a good auction. Otherwise - go find a private farm and buy from them.

With that said, the farm production sales are different than the regular auctions I worked and don't have a real opinion about those, but have some hunches.

 

[SWA]

I am going to be bold and ask the question - Has anyone that has posted and wonder how auctions work - have you worked a couple auctions so you understand how they are run? I did. I put a summer in working several auction houses and auctions in my area. I have drawn some interesting conclusions about how and why auctions are run.
The one opinion I would like to state is - if it is a reputable auction company with reputable farms cosigning, then it is maybe a good auction. Otherwise - go find a private farm and buy from them.

With that said, the farm production sales are different than the regular auctions I worked and don't have a real opinion about those, but have some hunches.

I have no experience at all with auctions and how they work. Which is why I was curios with my posting this topic, in hopes of learning from those with more experience, and hearing their opinions on whether they feel such venues for sales actually help our hurt the overall market value of their sales. I personaly, have never purchased from nor sold through any type of auction venue, nor participated in any type of group farm sale/auction or farm production event who also have group farm consignments offered at their events. I have only ever attended one auction in person, but that was a "Farm Dispersal" event, the Grosshill Sale about 7 or 8 years ago. Hubby and I attended this one, only for something to do for an afternoon, knowing full well we would not be able to purchase, low priced or not, at that point in time. It was however, a chance for us to see then, how prices went, in comparison to what I "hear" of how they are today. Aside from this "dispersal" type auction, I've only ever had opportunity to view one online, sometime last summer, though I don't remember who hosted it, just that it was webcast by the Marestare folks. I do remember those prices were considerably lower though, and lots of folks were really dissappointed to hear how low many of the very nice quality horses went...except for those who were fortunate enough to purchase at those prices, LOL.

I do see the benefits from a buyer's perspective to shop at these events, most certainly. It gives them opportunity to purchase quality animals they would not likely otherwise be able to afford to acquire.

At the same time though, I was excited to see some of the prices at the most recent event with the Reece Family Production Sale, as John Cherry stated.

I personally was glad to see folks P.O. some of the horses that did not bring wht the owners thought they should have. This says to me that the owners were not willing to just dump the horses and have faith in the market and feel they will have a chance to sell them later at a more appropriate price.
I think the sale was a good one where buyers got some really neat horses at reasonable prices and the sellers were well represented also. . Which is a win win for everyone

Thank you John, for your input. Yes, I agree, the Reece Family event, for the most part, was very encouraging, with regard to maintaining a decent market value, for decent quality offerings. Although, I'm not sure what the term "P. O. some horses" means?

Hoping someone will elaborate on that, LOL.

All in all, the whole purpose of my posting for opinions here, was in hopes of learning whether or not to, perhaps sometime in the future, to participate in any such events for our farm offerings. I was uncertain, based on inquiries of my current offerings, whether or not it would be wise to offer them through group farm sales/auctions, or just retain for private terms. As I hoped to convey.... I am just now learning all this area of the industry for myself, and just hoping to make wise decisions as we go, in looking toward a sucessful future for our farm.

In no way was my posting meant to undermine anyone's current selling practices. Nor all the hard work that is put into running such events. Just wanting to learn for myself, what may or may not work in the market overall ... with regard to sustaining a fair "Market Value" to list offerings by. Hope this makes sense.

 

[JWC sr.]

I agree with you SWA that it was very encouraging to see the prices and the number of people bidding both on-line and in person on the horses.

I have been involved with numerous auctions over the years and in fact our marketing group IAMHA has sponsered "The Ultimate Event Show and Sale" back in April of this year. Where the horses brought very good money and the bidding was brisk. In addition IAMHA has held 2 on-line auction with a third planned for the latter part of this year and we also are sponsoring a Set of Driving/Halter/ Proper Dress/Dental Care/Nutrition Seminars and a Show Prospect sale on November 15th of this year which will spotlight geldings and show prospect horses that are trained in one disipline or another. So to answer one of the other posters, I do have a lot of auction experience.

We routinely buy at some of the auctions in the industry and have sold a number of really nice show horses at them as well. I have my eye on a colt that is consigned to the World Sale in Ft Worth this year and also consigned two horses to that sale in particular.

We also routinely stay away from the historically low priced sales with no control or selection process as we have found over the years that the quality of the horses there are normally not something we want to add to our herd. There are exceptions, but from our experience not often.

The Reese Family Farm auction is a perfect example of what is right about a well run and managed auction within our industry. In addition to that it was flat fun to watch and I personally enjoyed watching a few friends get some really nice horses at the sale. There were a number of forum members there in the chat room cheering each other on and critiqueing the horses as they came out.

Oh by the way the term P.O. stand for Pass Out and is where the onwer either verbally or from a pre-set minimum reserve amount decides not to take the final bid offering. I was very glad to see them P.O. some of the horses that just did not get close to what they were worth. Just for information's sake there were 14 P.O.'s mixed in with the horses that sold out of the 81 consignments.

 

[SWA]

Oh by the way the term P.O. stand for Pass Out and is where the onwer either verbally or from a pre-set minimum reserve amount decides not to take the final bid offering. I was very glad to see them P.O. some of the horses that just did not get close to what they were worth. Just for information's sake there were 14 P.O.'s mixed in with the horses that sold out of the 81 consignments.

Thanks so much for helping to explain what that means.

That is also encouraging to know that, that is an option available. I was always under the impression that when offered in auction it is then obligated to sell to the highest bidder, unless a pre-set reserve wasn't met. I didn't know they could still opt out of a sale, if even the highest bid was not to the seller's preference, even when there was no pre-set reserve. That is a great comfort to know.