Fat mini's/founder

[KathyB]

Help!

First of all, can someone please explain founder to me. It seems like I get a different answer everytime I ask the question. What makes sense to me is that a horse founders when they become to heavy for their hoofs to support them and the extra weight changes the structure of their hoofs/bones. But I also hear (this makes no sense to me) over- eating grain one time can cause a horse to founder. I have been told a horse will not founder on grass alone and I have been told to only feed hay. I want to do the right thing, but I am having trouble figuring out what that is.

My horses are all chubby (3 geldings, 2 mares), two of them are plain old fat. Currently they are on pasture 24/7, no grain. I cut the grain out on the advice of my farrier about six weeks ago. They do not appear to be losing weight. I am in south GA and it seems too hot to exercise them. I had decided to take them off pasture (not overly lush) and put them on hay only, but I was told the grass won't hurt them??? In the fall I will invest in a round pen and I am sure exercise will help much. In the meantime, are they in danger of foundering if they are only getting grass and salt/minerals? If so, what should I do?

Thanks

 

[Nichcole]

Here is a good article that gives you some info on foundering:

http://horseproducts.stablemade.com/_Articles/founder.htm

There are different types and it goes over them !!

Edited to add this website:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laminitis#Fou...ing_and_sinking

Here is a good quote from that article"In the U.S.A., founder has come to mean any chronic changes in the structure of the foot. In some texts, the term "founder" is now used synonymously with laminitis."

I know so many people who have horses and founder manys different things , it just depends on who you are talking to.

 

[Marty]

If you do a google search, there's a million great links on the subject. Here's one of them

http://www.petcaretips.net/founder_laminitis_horse.html

Now, here's the short, compact version:

Laminitis or Founder

To understand laminitis, you have to understand the structure of the hoof. Laminae is the soft tissue that attaches the coffin bone to the hoof wall. When laminitis strikes, the lamina becomes swelled and inflamed. This causes the blood supply to the hoof to diminish which renders the horse lame. In other words, the hoof cannot expand to accommodate the swelling of the lamina, so the blood that is keeping the hoof alive stops, and the hoof begins to die.

This is a highly serious and terribly painful condition that in many cases, cannot be rectified. It is common that founder will happen after that. Founder (means to sink) follows laminitis and occurs when the coffin bone begins to rotate and eventually starts to fall through (sink) the bottom of the sole. Some laminitis/founder cases are treatable and the horse may somewhat recover. As a result, he may become permanently lame, suffer constant pain, and require on-going specialized care. Severe cases resulting in chronic, permanent lameness may necessitate euthanasia.

There are many causes for laminitis. The most common cause is sudden exposure to new spring grass resulting from the overload of carbohydrates. Horses that break into the feed room and gorge themselves on grain, illness, fever, obesity, stress and cold weather are all some of the known causes of laminitis. Signs of a laminitis attack would be lameness, rocking back on the hind feet, and stiffness in the front legs. A laminitis attack is considered an extreme emergency and your vet should be called to attend to the horse immediately. Steps will be taken to try to stabilize the horse from foundering, by administering anti-toxic drugs, and X rays would be inevitable to assess the damage.

Sure your horses can grass founder at any time, and not just during the spring growth.

I'd suspect that keeping them on grass 24-7 is probably your biggest problem, although many farms do it and swear by it. Personally, on my farm I can't, or my horses would be foundering left and right due to my lush grass. I have them on grass in the fields part of the day, and then they come into the dry lot or in the barn. That is where I doll out the hay and can control the amount, and moniter it so no one gets an overload.

Many years ago I thought dry lots were stupid, and I learned the hard way they are a necessity for my horses that were grossly obese. I also do feed them twice a day using a ration balancer (Born to Win) by Purina instead of grain. Since I have them on this program, most of them are very fit, practically in show shape condition. As we approach fall the grass will begin to die off and then they can be out on it all day long.

 

[KathyB]

Thanks Nichole! The wikipedia link helped alot. At least I understand why I get so many different answers.

Marty,

How much of the day are they out on pasture vs dry lot?

Kathy

 

[Nichcole]

Thanks Nichole! The wikipedia link helped alot. At least I understand why I get so many different answers.

Your welcome it was very confusing to me till I found that link One thing I have learned about horses is to take the opinons and advice that everyone gives you and combined it all in to somthing that works best for you and your horses.

 

[KathyB]

deleted

 

[Marty]

Hey Kathy, with me and my set up, time in the fields vary. We've had drought, now rain, and the grass is growing like crazy now, so my normal schedule is complicated at this time. Plus I don't like them out in this horrible head during the day so they come in earlier now.

Take a look at your overall feeding program, your hay, grains, your horses, your fields, review your schedule and see what you can come up with. It took my horses a GOOD six months before I saw any real noticible change in their appeareance so don't try to rush any changes is the best thing I can tell you.

 

[Matt73]

My horses are on rotation for grass turnout. They get 1 hour grass turnout MAX every other day early in the morning. They then come in for their grain. The next day they get their grain first and are out until 5 or so on a dry lot with plenty of hay all day, then they have their evening grain. The only reason they are on a rotation is because of my stud who I don't keep with the girls...so...one day one, one day off. I may be overdoing it, but I'm so paranoid about laminitis. My guy and girls are a nice weight and I don't worry about them doing what I'm doing. Just "listen" to them and use your intuition. Just putting my 2 cents in

:

If they were big horses I may not be so paranoid but...you know ponies and these guys.

 

[Danielle_E.]

Please don't think it's only "fat" horses that can founder. Founder can be caused by numerous things. Unfortunately I received a phone call from a great friend of mine, Linda, who owns a few horses and she was in tears. She told me they had to put Okie down due to founder. This was a 26 year old Morgan who was the sweetess guy and as we say "been there done that". We have had disgustingly hot and humid weather and feeding grain in these kinds of temps CAN cause founder which seems to be what happened in this case, not because the animal was fat. Rest in peace dear Oakie, you will be missed by many :no: When the temps get to be close to 100 I don't grain any of my horses until it's cooler in the evening and if it doesn't cool down, they don't get any. I give them a feeding of soaked beet pulp instead to ensure they get the additional water intake they need during these high temperature days.

 

[Fred]

Laminitis or founder is caused by stress on the system and Danielle is right its not just fat horses that founder. A horse in severe pain, untreated medical issues, or horses sensitive to weather extremes can be laminitic or founder. Linda

 

[SilverDollar]

Laminitis is near and dear to my heart. Everything everyone has posted is correct; laminitis has many causes and is not just a "fat" horse/pony disease, although they do tend to be more prone to it. Yes, you have to do your homework to understand it but don't get too scared, either, by what you read. Laminitis/founder IS treatable and horses/ponies CAN recover to full soundness from it. My pony has suffered from this off and on, however, we finally have it under control. Hers is due to insulin resistance (IR) and Cushing's. After foundering (this term tends to refer to when there is rotation in the hoof; laminitis is the disease or condition) with rotation of 18-20 degrees, my pony is about 95-98% sound and canters willingly, pain-free. For our situation, diet and a good barefoot trim have been the keys (I admit I'm biased to barefoot and would personally never nail in a shoe on a foundered horse; glue-on, maybe. JMHO.) Very low-sugar hay is critical to her--she's a sugar barometer!--and no/low carbs

:

Here are some good sites: www.safergrass.org; www.hoofrehab.com (look under Articles). Good luck. Do your homework but remember that in the horse world, everyone has an opinion.

: Including me. :bgrin

 

[Danielle_E.]

In full size horses recovering totally from it is very unlikely and very far and few between, the founder would have to be a very limited case. A horse that is ridden and has had a bout of founder/laminitis will more than likely never perform to the same as before pre-founder.

 

[Fred]

Sorry but I don't agree. I do MANY horses [full size] that have had laminitis, or founder with rotation and come back from it. It depends on the severity, the horse and most especially the care. Some of these horses were polo ponies or show horses [all different disciplines]. Linda

 

[SilverDollar]

I agree with you, Fred. I know of many full-size horses that have come back from it. Note that the coffin bone does not necessarily stay "rotated". Only x-rays will confirm location of the coffin bone in the foot. That being said, each case is unique and a lot depends on the owner's commitment to recovery in addition to the horse's commitment, age, previous health, etc. I just want people to know that it's not necessarily a "death sentence".

:

 

[KathyB]

Just want to thank everyone for all the really helpful info. Understanding that founder is used to describe the end result, not the cause, really helped alot.

I am still not sure how fat is TOO fat, but I will try taking the two heavier one off the pasture 12hr/day (with hay) and see if that makes any difference.