Halter class question

[Tiff]

First of all, I know that apps and pintos fit into this group, but what about buckskins?? Iv gone to a regional show and the buckskins are in the solid color class, which sort of confuses me.. If they have very obvious dorsal stripes than IMO I think that makes them more flashy? than a solid colored bay or chestnut for example. I know that what I think isnt going to get them into the color class, but just thought id bring it up..

ALSO, I have a buckskin that has 1 single spot on his side. His mother was an appy(roan with darker colored spots on the butt) and I dont know if that is some odd app spot from no where or if it might even be a scar(but I highly doubt it). If I DNA tested to find out what color he is, would that 1 spot classify him to go into the color class??

I hope this makes sense..

 

[love_casper]

By "color" they mean white markings. So the "solid color" classes is anything other than pintos and appies. Not ... flashy versus less flashy. Lots of duns and silvers do well in the solid color class.

In the pinto and appies, they look for about 50/50 white/color, the real loudly marked ones, so... I don't know what that spot looks like but I'd show him solid if you can get away with it. It's been a while since I've taken a look at the show industry though... there may be some rule about white in specific areas.

 

[MiniatureEscapades]

Not to hijack the thread, but I have a similar question. My filly has two paint spots on her belly, one between her front legs and one between her back legs

but they are absolutely not visible unless you are directly under her. Indeed, her breeders hadn't seen the front spot until we were under her just to be under her and we only discovered the rear spot after clipping her recently.

Would one get in any sort of trouble for showing a horse like that, or a horse as stated above with a small spot on the side, in a solid class?

 

[targetsmom]

I could be wrong, but I believe they go by what is listed on the papers to determine which color class they go in. And as we all know, those colors are quite often incorrect. The white body spots - if there is pink skin under them - mean the horse is actually a pinto, and even eligible for Pinto Horse Association registry. I suspect there are LOTS of pintos that are registered as solid - well there must be because almost all of our pinto minis trace back to 2 "solid" parents. The most famous being Rowdy and some of his sons. I am not sure what a judge would do if he saw a white (or appy) spot on a mini in a solid color class.

 

[ruffian]

By "color" they mean white markings. So the "solid color" classes is anything other than pintos and appies. Not ... flashy versus less flashy. Lots of duns and silvers do well in the solid color class.
In the pinto and appies, they look for about 50/50 white/color, the real loudly marked ones, so... I don't know what that spot looks like but I'd show him solid if you can get away with it. It's been a while since I've taken a look at the show industry though... there may be some rule about white in specific areas.

A horse with a spot anywhere other than the head or legs below the knees that is larger than a quarter is technically a pinto according to AMHA/AMHR. So legally it should show in the multi color class, even though you can't see the markings.

I've had horses that were born bright pintos and grayed out to solid white. They only way you could see their spots were if they were soaking wet and clipped. I rarely showed them in color - about the only time was when I was joking with a friend who was judging a fun show. She went around my horse about 6 times, and finally stepped close and said "Where's his spots?" I pointed them out and laughed. She laughed also - and agreed he had to show in that class. But he didn't place.

The rules also state to look for a 50/50 color pattern, but it really boils down to the judge's preference. I've seen blacks, bays, grays (my personal LEAST favorite

) win solid color, and very minimal pintos win multi.

I do have to disagree a bit with casper - there are a lot of Flashy solids!!

 

[Dona]

I would always show a horse on how it "appears".....not what it is genetically. Why would you want to show a horse that is technically a pinto, but appears to be solid, in a pinto class? It would just be a waste of money, as it would not place well in a pinto class. I don't think the judges care what the horse is genetically....they are only looking at what they see.

Besides, a horse that only has a couple small white spots in an inconspicuous area, would not be considered a "pinto" even tho it carries the pinto genes. Solid horses with which socks are "genetic" pintos....but are shown in "solid" classes, not multi-color.

 

[kaykay]

I know in AMHR they do check the papers so if your papers say pinto or appy you cannot show in solid even if the horse looks solid.

Our grey filly promise has won a ton in solid color. Grey is a beautiful color especially if they are a slow going grey

Our frame overo Meadow won National Multi Color Champion at Congress

Keep in mind grooming is a huge deal in color class. I remember one time I beat a horse that I really felt I shouldnt have (I was newer then and had clipped her too close to the show which dulled her color) so I asked the judge after the show why he placed me 1st. He said the other horse was not groomed well so he put me first.

 

[angelspeeper]

Here was my experience at the world show last year at AMHA.

I bought a filly who was born solid bay, but by weaning time had a white spot on her upper flank. This spot was about the size of a coke can. The breeder said it was a "birthmark", but I am absolutely sure she was solid when I bought her at a week old. Even her registration pictures on her papers show NO white!

Now fast forward to the world show...

She was entered in the solid color class by recommendation of the breeder. (He was aware of the spot) At line up time for the class, they wouldn't let me show her. I insisted her papers said she was solid. They ended up putting a hold on the class. They went and got the show rules committee and made them physically inspect the horse and her papers. The show rules committee ended up ruling that she would be allowed to show in solid color ONLY because her papers said she was solid. BUT...that I needed to have her papers changed as she was not a solid but a pinto. At the end of the class I even had a judge come over to me and tell me I was in the wrong class! I was so embarrassed!!!!!!!!!

Now, I come from having big horses...both Quarters and Paints. I have NEVER seem a paint born solid and then get spots later. A true paint is born a paint. I have seen some breeding stock paints (solid horses) that did get a few small roan type spots, but these were only about as big as the end of your finger.

Now I'm left wondering what she really is. There are NO paints in her pedigree at all! I was told to have her tested, but what would I have her tested for?

 

[Sunny]

First of all, I know that apps and pintos fit into this group, but what about buckskins?? Iv gone to a regional show and the buckskins are in the solid color class, which sort of confuses me.. If they have very obvious dorsal stripes than IMO I think that makes them more flashy? than a solid colored bay or chestnut for example. I know that what I think isnt going to get them into the color class, but just thought id bring it up..ALSO, I have a buckskin that has 1 single spot on his side. His mother was an appy(roan with darker colored spots on the butt) and I dont know if that is some odd app spot from no where or if it might even be a scar(but I highly doubt it). If I DNA tested to find out what color he is, would that 1 spot classify him to go into the color class??

I hope this makes sense..

You already know that apps and pinto fit into the multi-colour class so, obviously, everything else goes in solid colour. If a horse has any white patches on its body (inconspicuous or not), then it's considered a pinto. If a horse has only a small spot, it isn't likely to place well against loud coloured pintos or appies. And, chances are, if it's mostly white with only a very small amount of colour, it likely won't place well, either.

Generally speaking, when I'm judging a solid colour class, especially a huge one, I look for the best examples of each colour, i.e. the best black, the best dapple grey, the best buckskin, etc., and then put them in order according to coat condition, grooming, and personal preference to some extent. (There's one colour I really don't like, but if I see a really good example of it, I'll probably use it.) It's pretty much the same in the multi-colour classes, too. I look for the best sorrel pinto, black pinto, grey pinto, appy, etc. These are probably the most subjective of all the halter classes since we really don't have any firm rules to go by in the AMHR, but it helps the judge to have knowledge of the rules of the various colour breeds.

Hope this helps.

 

[targetsmom]

Is the skin under the spot pink? If so, it was likely there all along and she is a pinto. If the skin is dark, then it is NOT a pinto spot. The PtHA wanted me to wet down one of our minis to photograph the pink skin - but it was January in New England so I politely declined. Ours did have enough white for them anyway, but the pink skin is a true test.

 

[angelspeeper]

I clipped her as close as I dare for the time of year. I used a 30 blade. But with her being a weanling at the time she was so fuzzy, I couldn't see the skin. When it warms up here I guess I will have to razor a small spot of it to see. All that baby fuzz, even when clipped is still to hard to tell.

I am going to get her tested, but what all would I test for? She is a lighter bay with a possible dun stripe (it's not real clear), but she has no other dun markings. OH and lets not forget that weird white spot.

Her sire was a palomino and her dam is a medium bay

Here is a picture of her clipped. Its not a good picture by any means, but it is the best one I could find of her funky little spot.

 

[HGFarm]

Not all Appies and Pintos are good candidates for a color class. They are looking for rather loud and flashy with good overall use of their color pattern. I would not take an Appy that only has some roaning on it's rear to a color class- it will not do well. If I had pintos, I would also not consider that a good 'color class' candidate either, if it only had one or two spots, or a blaze and a couple of high socks.

 

[Dontworrybeappy]

Our club was looking for classes to cut one year and I suggested cutting the color classes - because, IMHO, they really don't mean much. Someone leaped up and shouted "You CAN'T cut the color classes - some people breed for color!" - well, duh! I'm one of them! In fact, I'm breeding towards an even more specific goal than just appaloosa.... and I STILL don't think that color classes mean much of anything!

Of course, the club didn't cut them, because they are big money making classes for the club - lots of entries.... so from that point of view it is understandable why the shows hold them.

In any case, I don't generally enter the color classes... just costs me more money and anything I won wouldn't mean much to me, personally.

I'm much more impressed with a colored horse winning in halter than I am with one that wins in color... color is just the frosting - the "cake" (conformation, movement, soundness of mind and body) is what really counts!

Of course, that doesn't mean that I'm not out there hunting spots on my foals or dying to clip my fuzzy appies to see whats underneath!

 

[Relic]

She's a nice little horse

but if she was in a pinto class up here with actual looking pintos from both sides she would or in my opinion should never place. AMHA rules are judged 80% color and 20% confirmation. lf you really wanted her in color class l would use dark shoe polish to color that little square and stick her in solid in fact we've done that in the past . We don't do color anymore it's 20/30 bucks a class here and a personal opinion on what the judge likes nothing to do with the mini at 20% conformation..JMO

 

[Dona]

Here was my experience at the world show last year at AMHA.
I bought a filly who was born solid bay, but by weaning time had a white spot on her upper flank. This spot was about the size of a coke can. The breeder said it was a "birthmark", but I am absolutely sure she was solid when I bought her at a week old. Even her registration pictures on her papers show NO white!

Now fast forward to the world show...

She was entered in the solid color class by recommendation of the breeder. (He was aware of the spot) At line up time for the class, they wouldn't let me show her. I insisted her papers said she was solid. They ended up putting a hold on the class. They went and got the show rules committee and made them physically inspect the horse and her papers. The show rules committee ended up ruling that she would be allowed to show in solid color ONLY because her papers said she was solid. BUT...that I needed to have her papers changed as she was not a solid but a pinto. At the end of the class I even had a judge come over to me and tell me I was in the wrong class! I was so embarrassed!!!!!!!!!

Now, I come from having big horses...both Quarters and Paints. I have NEVER seem a paint born solid and then get spots later. A true paint is born a paint. I have seen some breeding stock paints (solid horses) that did get a few small roan type spots, but these were only about as big as the end of your finger.

Now I'm left wondering what she really is. There are NO paints in her pedigree at all! I was told to have her tested, but what would I have her tested for?

Here is a picture of her clipped. Its not a good picture by any means, but it is the best one I could find of her funky little spot.

This horse is not a pinto. That marking would have to have white skin underneith to be considered a pinto marking. It looks more like a Sabino "roan" marking, that I'm sure has dark skin under it.

IMO, those judges who told you that you were in the wrong class, need to brush up on what qualifies to be a white pinto marking!

Also, I'm surprised at the ignorance of the showrules committee who told you that you needed to have her papers changed to pinto. I'm sure neither registry would change her papers to read "pinto" solely on that one small roany spot....even if you requested it. A horse has to have a certain percentage of white on the body to qualify to be a pinto.

 

[angelspeeper]

It is actually white. That previous picture isn't very good. I will have to go out to the barn and take an up close shot so you can see what I mean. Will post it later today.

Excuse the winter woollies, but here is a new pic. I should have held something up to it for reference but it is about 2 and a half inches at the longest point. I can easily place a coke can on it and still see white. As you can see not enough to enter multi-color, but too much to enter solid color.

 

[Carolyn R]

It is actually white. That previous picture isn't very good. I will have to go out to the barn and take an up close shot so you can see what I mean. Will post it later today.
Excuse the winter woollies, but here is a new pic. I should have held something up to it for reference but it is about 2 and a half inches at the longest point. I can easily place a coke can on it and still see white. As you can see not enough to enter multi-color, but too much to enter solid color.

Calling Dr. Clarol or Dr.Loreal

JK