Help with kicking

[MiniInTheCity]

My teen got a mini (our first horse) last May. He is about 18 months old now. When he is facing the back of his stall eating and she comes in from the front he will kick out with a hind leg. It reminds me of food protection aggression in dogs. But I don't have experience with horses. Even when he's not eating he doesn't like people to come in when he's in the stall, appears to feel cornered and gets out. He's been skittish since he came and she's made a lot of progress with him, but it's still difficult to catch him without grain. Just wondered if you had advice on how to respond and teach him not to kick when someone comes into stall with him when he's eating.

 

[Kelly]

If he is kicking or biting he is saying he is alpha and he is in charge … or he might being saying at times he is scared. Either way, this behavior is not acceptable in my book nor is it tolerated at my house. If a horse kicks at me, I will kick back. If a horse bites at me, I will bite back. I dont care if he is skittish or not, this behavior is unacceptable. He is only 18 months old, this problem needs to be nipped in the bud right away!

This is how I would fix the problem… I would carry a whip with me and if I had to use it I would. If I enter a stall and a horse kicks at me, I would kick back by sending the horse off and out of my space. I would go to the food bowl and not allow the horse to eat. After a short while, if he is behaving, I would alllow the horse back in to eat. After a few bites, I would send him off, out of my space again and would not allow the horse to eat. I would repeat this process until he knows I am alpha/boss mare, I am in charge, and kicking is not allowed.

Also, if he is a stallion I would geld ASAP!

Oh! And we need pics of said horse

 

[Crimson Rose]

I am going to come at this problem from a different angle and with a different solution. First of all how much time in a pasture does this colt get with other horses? Horses need lots of freedom to move, and friends as they are herd animals; keeping him alone in a stall when he sounds already like an unconfident baby only creates more uncertainty and frustration for him. Second does he have access to 24/7 hay? Horses are designed by nature to graze constantly, and denied this will quickly develop food guarding behaviors due to feeling like they are starving, and could also develop ulcers very easily. If these needs are met, I can go into more detail and also how I would go about training him to help those behaviors go away. I personally don't believe in the whole "alpha" horse thing, as it doesn't back up the science in horse behavior, and not to mention alpha is a term and definition used for predatory animals, which horses are not.

https://www.eurodressage.com/2018/12/27/usemisuse-leadership-and-dominance-concepts-horse-training

 

[Kelly]

I can go into more detail and also I would go about training him to help those behaviors go away.

Yes, please do.

ETA: pasture time, stall time, friends, whatever, either way you look at it, kicking is not allowed.

And there is ALWAYS a boss mare or alpha/leader horse in every herd of horses.

 

[Crimson Rose]

Sure, I can do that. I never allow kicking in my herd either (or any other potentially dangerous behavior. I am currently dealing with a spicy playful almost yearling filly) but I view it differently due to science and respond to it accordingly. With this baby it sounds like he is having resource guarding issues due to being hungry, but I can't completely know if that is the case based off of the current information and not seeing him personally. I would first make sure that he has 24/7 forage in a hay net, and adequate turn out with friends. Then I would teach him to target something, and each time I came to the stall I would want him to target that thing in order to keep him facing forward, and reward that generously at first, then teach him to target something stationary on the wall, and increase that duration so that he learns to station there while you need to work in his stall or halter him. I can provide video clips or more instructions if needed on how to accomplish this. It is all about planning to try to set the horse up to be safe and successful, and the human as well. I know that this isn't always possible, and if it catches you off guard you have to go into self preservation mode to protect yourself, but I wouldn't punish the horse beyond making a loud noise and creating a fuss so that they move away, especially with a young foal. Most horses give plenty of warning before it gets to this point, I could go into more detail and such but I don't know if it is necessary for this post? Feel free to message me if you want to discuss it more or have any questions.

Edited to Add: Horses don't view us as being horses, and since we can't live with them 24/7 we can never be the "leader" of their herd. We are predatory, and they are not, science clearly backs this up as well. Science does back up learning theory though, and supports how horses view us based off income from interaction, and they learn how to act accordingly in order to find the least path of resistance around us in order to stay safe. I can go into greater detail with this as well. I would gladly refer you to articles, books, videos, ect?

 

[Kelly]

Then I would teach him to target something, and each time I came to the stall I would want him to target that thing in order to keep him facing forward, and reward that generously at first, then teach him to target something stationary on the wall, and increase that duration so that he learns to station there while you need to work in his stall or halter him.

About how long would this take to teach a horse?

 

[Crimson Rose]

About how long would this take to teach a horse?

Each horse is different of course, but my horses have never taken more then a few minutes to learn basic targeting. Having them then learn to target something on the wall and station for a length of time would of course take more sessions and time.

 

[Kelly]

Oh yes, we had very different training views.

Horses in the wild don’t practice Target training, they understand their place in the herd and they understand exactly who is in charge. I think Target training is great for some things, but doesn’t really apply to the above situation. If a horse were kicking at me tonight in a stall when I went to feed him, there wouldn’t be time for Target training, I would need to react and correct the behavior immediately. It would only take one time with me and that horse would no longer kick towards me, might test me an additional time but again I would correct the behavior immediately.

We are predatory, and they are not, science clearly backs this up as well. Science does back up learning theory though, and supports how horses view us based off income from interaction, and they learn how to act accordingly in order to find the least path of resistance around us in order to stay safe.

Yes, I agree! We are predatory and horses are prey animals. Yes, they learn how to act accordingly in order to find the least path of resistance around us in order to stay safe. Again, if he kicks, I kick back. If he bites, I bite back. I’m not going into a stall swinging fists and whips at a horse, I am simply responding to their behavior and correcting what isn’t allowed or tolerated. My horses aren’t afraid of me, but they do know the rules and view me as their leader. My rules are very black and white, no place for misinterpretation. No kicking allowed and no biting allowed. This teenagers could get really injured if action isn’t takin quickly and swiftly to nip this bad behavior in the bud.

 

[Crimson Rose]

I never said to not correct the behavior in the moment when caught off guard or in the middle of it, I am definitely not for anyone being at risk; but I am for training to avoid problems in the safest way possible ahead of time. Horses in the wild are never ridden, driven, lead by halter and lead, or blanketed either. That is why I view training time verses other time differently according to the science of learning theory and how all species learn. I wouldn't ever kick or bite my child, cat, or dog if they bit or kicked me especially when they were a baby, so why is it okay to do to a foal, when a loud noise and movement would do?

 

[Kelly]

 

[Crimson Rose]

We aren't horses Also why would a teen bitting or kicking this colt be safe?! We are also talking about a domestic miniature colt in situations that a wild horse is never put in, and you just posted a video of domestic horses, not wild horses. The situations and causes don't add up.

I am not wanting to argue at all, we are both just trying to help by stating different opinions. There are many different ways to look at a problem and find a solution.

 

[Kelly]

If I enter a stall and a horse kicks at me, I would kick back by sending the horse off and out of my space. I would go to the food bowl and not allow the horse to eat. After a short while, if he is behaving, I would alllow the horse back in to eat. After a few bites, I would send him off, out of my space again and would not allow the horse to eat. I would repeat this process until he knows I am alpha/boss mare, I am in charge, and kicking is not allowed.

Also, if he is a stallion I would geld ASAP!

Oh! And we need pics of said horse

You asked I wouldn’t kick with my leg or bite with my teeth, that’s hilarious but I have read that some people do LOL im not recommending that LOL

 

[Crimson Rose]

You asked I wouldn’t kick with my leg or bite with my teeth, that’s hilarious but I have read that some people do LOL im not recommending that LOL

I am sorry, but that is totally how your sentences read. I have known people do the same, so that is why I thought you were serious. I am glad to know that you wouldn't physically do that.

 

[Standards Equine]

Horses are incredibly good at communicating in their own way. It's just they're nonverbal. Herds absolutely have a hierarchy, a social structure. The lead mare will not move around any horse from point A to point B (unless maybe her favorite buddy is napping) but especially not the young horses. They are expected to get out of her way. They have different methods of establishing the social structure.
Humans come along, and no, we're not horses, we're not herd members, but that doesn't mean horses don't continue to communicate with us in the same manner they communicate with other horses in. It's what they know - just like how we speak to horses. That isn't to say they don't understand when we take on a leadership role and communicate expectations. I don't like "I'm the boss" thinking for myself either. But I really like "I'm the leader, the horse is my partner." And I find that horses really enjoy me, being around me and working with me, when they understand that I'm the leader, I will clearly explain my expectations and appropriately reward the efforts. I find they become far more relaxed and give me more effort.

A lifetime spent with horses...

I like the idea of being able to have little man mobilize his hindquarters. A respectful understanding that hindquarters should be moved away from a human entering his space is where I'd start. Yes, I use a whip as an extension of my arm too. It can be firm and it can be gentle. So can my hand.

I do agree with the need for social behavior. If he's all by himself, he's missing the opportunity for big stimulus outlet and "language development" in his natural environment. Hopefully you guys can find what works for you and him and build a strong relationship together. Afterall, that's what we all want.

 

[Kelly]

I am sorry, but that is totally how your sentences read.

see above… I stated…
”I would kick back by sending the horse off and out of my space….”

 

[Crimson Rose]

Again, if he kicks, I kick back. If he bites, I bite back. I’m not going into a stall swinging fists and whips at a horse, I am simply responding to their behavior and correcting what isn’t allowed or tolerated. My horses aren’t afraid of me, but they do know the rules and view me as their leader. My rules are very black and white, no place for misinterpretation. No kicking allowed and no biting allowed. This teenagers could get really injured if action isn’t takin quickly and swiftly to nip this bad behavior in the bud.

Yes, but then you said this, and it was and can be very easily misguiding

 

[Kelly]

If he is kicking or biting he is saying he is alpha and he is in charge … or he might being saying at times he is scared. Either way, this behavior is not acceptable in my book nor is it tolerated at my house. If a horse kicks at me, I will kick back. If a horse bites at me, I will bite back. I dont care if he is skittish or not, this behavior is unacceptable. He is only 18 months old, this problem needs to be nipped in the bud right away!

This is how I would fix the problem… I would carry a whip with me and if I had to use it I would. If I enter a stall and a horse kicks at me, I would kick back by sending the horse off and out of my space. I would go to the food bowl and not allow the horse to eat. After a short while, if he is behaving, I would alllow the horse back in to eat. After a few bites, I would send him off, out of my space again and would not allow the horse to eat. I would repeat this process until he knows I am alpha/boss mare, I am in charge, and kicking is not allowed.

Also, if he is a stallion I would geld ASAP!

Oh! And we need pics of said horse

Oh yes, we had very different training views.

Horses in the wild don’t practice Target training, they understand their place in the herd and they understand exactly who is in charge. I think Target training is great for some things, but doesn’t really apply to the above situation. If a horse were kicking at me tonight in a stall when I went to feed him, there wouldn’t be time for Target training, I would need to react and correct the behavior immediately. It would only take one time with me and that horse would no longer kick towards me, might test me an additional time but again I would correct the behavior immediately.




Yes, I agree! We are predatory and horses are prey animals. Yes, they learn how to act accordingly in order to find the least path of resistance around us in order to stay safe. Again, if he kicks, I kick back. If he bites, I bite back. I’m not going into a stall swinging fists and whips at a horse, I am simply responding to their behavior and correcting what isn’t allowed or tolerated. My horses aren’t afraid of me, but they do know the rules and view me as their leader. My rules are very black and white, no place for misinterpretation. No kicking allowed and no biting allowed. This teenagers could get really injured if action isn’t takin quickly and swiftly to nip this bad behavior in the bud.

Sorry for any confusion I have caused anyone. This conversation is getting a bit ridiculous and really is going no where so I am done. Hopefully others will chime in with their opinions and experiences. Best of luck to you @MiniInTheCity with whatever training method you choose

 

[Crimson Rose]

I completely agree! I am out as well, if anyone wants to discuss anything further or get anymore information feel free to message me

 

[Cayuse]

Ok, I'm jumping in! First, I would feed the colt with his food at the front of the stall, that way his backside is facing away from the door. And when he is eating, let him be. He should not kick because of his food, but it IS his food, don't set him up for failure by trying to work with him right now while he's eating. Second. If he is generally skittish in the stall it might be a fear based reaction. I would work on handling him more outside of the stall where the territory might be more neutral. If he raised a foot at me outside the stall he'd get a sharp "no" and his bum swatted. Once he becomes trustworthy outside the stall with no food involved, then start working around him when he has food. I hope this makes sense. I have a suspicion he is protective of his feed cause he may have had to fight for it at some point.
As far as him not liking anyone in his stall, try opening the door, standing there, and then shutting it and leaving. Increase the time you stand there. When he is relaxed with that, open the door and go it the stall and just stand there, maybe give him a pat, then leave. Keep increasing the time you spend in the stall, but do not pressure him with any activity until he's relaxed. Just chill out with him (safely). Hopefully he'll learn to drop his defensiveness.
Hope this might help a little, it's a ramble, I know.
Now I'm out !

 

[MaryFlora]

Hi MiniIntheCity! There are many good tips and experiences already shared on this thread. Your head may be spinning!

A first horse, of any size, is a huge learning experience! It sounds like your first year has been largely positive and that’s a credit to all of you! When I started, at 13, absolutely everything was a question for me - and my first horse and I had the benefit of being in a riding stable on a military base with an instructor to help us with lessons and advice.

My first instructor was a WWII former cavalry officer who had a very classical and disciplined approach to riding and training. There was never any abusive behavior but expectations for person and horse were absolutely clear. If a horse misbehaved the first thing looked at was the overall comfort of the horse, then the rider. That’s why Crimson Rose’s point on your minis free time and company resonates. We can’t all have more than one horse so that isn’t a necessity though they enjoy company. Horses are all different but mine are outside by choice in a large 2 acre paddock about 75% of the time in all temperatures. If it is raining or heavy snow, I do shut them up until the storm passes.

The point Standards E and Kelly make on using a whip as an extension of your hand is also an important one. Families have different rules, but if your teen is allowed to search the Internet, perhaps she could search respected horse trainers until she finds one with a training style that she finds a good fit. Many have websites or YouTube videos illustrating different issues that pertain to any horse breed.

Would it be possible to feed your mini facing the door? Our feed coop carries wonderful square tip resistant feed pans. They are horse size but I love them for the minis. You just drop on the ground wherever you want and you are good go.

Since your mini comes to grain in a bucket I’d do that multiple times in a day with a small handful in the bucket. Every time he comes I’d give him lots of “atta boys” and slowly over time reduce that little bit of grain to a single treat - maybe apple slice or carrot - which I would drop on the ground to avoid any nipping after food. I have had success with that method and my mini.

Hope to hear more on your adventure! We love to share and wish you all well!
And we also love pony pics!