I know you are no vet,,,,,but I need for you to be

[Frankie]

I posted about a young mare,,,,,cresty neck, more like hard as a rock, as are her neck, hip and shoulder muscels. It was about 2 months ago.

Did blook work up,,,,,checked for about 15 things, all is normal. Bute helped her, she did seem to be good for about 4 weeks,,,,,,,,,,and it has started again.

2 yearlings were starting to act the same,,,,,but were not near as bad.

I changed food.

All improved,,,,,,,the yearlings are still very fine. Maybe not the same thing.

The mare walks like her entire body hurts, muscels seem to be tied up,,,,,,or totally tight.

Her feet have been checked 3 times now, no founder. All joints are fine, but she objects to having any leg stretched any direction. Her blood work has been ran 2 times,,at 2 different labs,,all is normal. Checked for countless diseases, no signs of any. Toxin levels are normal.

You would of thought at least the muscel toxins would of been off, but no.

Kidneys, liver, all functioning good. Insulin, glucose levels all normal. Not in foal. Gum color good, no fever, eats and drinks good,,poo normal, eyes clear, teeth good, no signs of worms in samples. No signs of any infection.

2 Vets agree it is something just contained with in her.

So this mare is perfectly healthy, her muscels are just tight as a board and she walks like the ground is going to come out from under her.

Banamine does nothing for her,,,,,,,,bute does help, we are very careful and the new vet I found even lectured me on it and being careful. So glad I found her.

Sent test results to University, according to them, they have not seen her,,,,,,her test results say nothing is wrong. So we are standing around scratching or heads.

Do you have any idea,,,,,,,suggestions,,,,,,,what else to look for?

She is with 7 other horses, all in that section are in same barn, drink same water, eat same food.

Kept a journal when she was bad last time,,,,,,no common factors now, as far as weather or anything else. Last time was during warm snap, now it's freezing.

Your thoughts, experience appreciated,,,,,,,,please!!!!!!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Azoturia

 

[Frankie]

And that is? You check for it how? Is there another name in case we have checked?

 

[HaazeMinis]

Hi Frankie

I am so sorry for your poor little mare! :no: I am no help and I ALSO Have a mare with THE SAME SYMPTOMS as yours! :new_shocked: It has been going on for close to the same time frame as yours! :no: Mine is also a young mare(3 years old). :no: I also had testing done and the vet (Equine Specialist) has been out here on NUMEROUS occasions. Blood work-up 2 times...The only difference is my mares Glucose was elevated (167) which now is normal with the last test. :no: But she STILL is the SAME! :no: Bute is the ONLY thing that helps her...

:

We also had changed to the "New" feed. Two other mares of mine started showing the same symptoms, however they never got as bad as this mare did. :new_shocked:

I feel so bad and so does the vet. We just cant figure out what is going on here. We have never had this type of situation before and it is really frustrating us.

: :ugh: I am so sorry you are going through this. :no:

((HUGS))

Jeri

 

[Frankie]

I remember now Jane,,,,,,,my vet called it the long name, Rhabdomyelosis.

The new vet was sure that was the problem, but enzymes do not indicate that to be the problem, in either test.

From all I know, the treatment would not hurt her, so we may go ahead and do the recommended treatment, maybe for whatever reason her body is fighting it enough to keep the enzyme level at normal. No way for me to know.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

This has been around long, LONG before there were any sorts of tests for it, so I think you really need to forget the tests saying it is not such and such and go with the symptoms- that is what I would do.

Sometimes you can be blinded by science, not helped by it.

Yes, Azoturia releases enzymes that can be identified but "Tying up" was a constant problem in racehorses and Hunters long before Azoturia was heard of!!

It was caused by a protein overload, a short burst of activity and then inactivity (see why it was Hunters and Racehorses??)

It was also called "Monday morning sickness" by hunter grooms.

It was committed then by a huge bran mash (basically a mild laxative + no food content, keeping the horse happy while it's digestive system copes with the overload) and walking out in hand.

So...what has changed- have they had to be kept in??

If so, in her case, I would stop all feed and just feed hay.

Let her run on empty for a few days- I would not even tail off the feed, just cut it out- and I KNOW Vets will tell you not to do this, I am just telling you what I would do!!!

Any time she has to be shut in or lacks exercise.

I also think she might be borderline IR and it just is not yet tipping the scale as it were.

All things to be looking out for.

You know something is wrong- all the Vet reports are telling you nothing is wrong- who are you going to believe, basically??

In this case, the science is failing you, so time to go back to the old books.

Talk to a few old timers round your way and see what they come up with- have you any Amish??

If not get Marty to corner a few "good old boys" on the mountain.

 

[Frankie]

Jane, I do agree with you.

Here's my take, see if you agree.

It is Sophie. She was shown and conditioned for 3 years,,,,,,,,,,,,,she was not this year.

I changed to the Platform Miniature,,,,,,,in my opinion too high in carbs,,,,,or just too high in carbs for her as all horses react different.

So I have thought the combination of that food change, (I changed back) and the not showing condtioning for basically the first time in her life,,,,,,,,,created her tying up.

All visual signs say that is what it is,,,,,my vet thought the same,,,,do you agree?

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Short answer- Yes, go with your gut feeling.

It will not be the lack of conditioning but I would take her off all grain/feed for a minimum of three days (time it takes to clear the gut) and then reintroduce her to one at a time- for example if you are feeding a feed + vitamins + additives give only one and a minimum amount, build up slowly, if OK carry on etc.

This is "spasmodic" so it would appear to me that the mare is coping with what ever it is that is aggravating her system until something else happens.

So...she could troll along just managing to cope until one day it is windy and they all run around- or it is rainy and they all stay in for two days, or someone is shooting and they are all anxious- get the idea???

It does not take a change in grain/feed sometimes all it takes is a change in circumstances- which is what always caused tying up in my day (back when the dinosaurs...oh you know the rest

)

 

[HaazeMinis]

Jane, I do agree with you.

Here's my take, see if you agree.

It is Sophie. She was shown and conditioned for 3 years,,,,,,,,,,,,,she was not this year.

I changed to the Platform Miniature,,,,,,,in my opinion too high in carbs,,,,,or just too high in carbs for her as all horses react different.

So I have thought the combination of that food change, (I changed back) and the not showing condtioning for basically the first time in her life,,,,,,,,,created her tying up.

All visual signs say that is what it is,,,,,my vet thought the same,,,,do you agree?

Yep, my mare is the same as frankies with the exception of the show conditioning part...I also switched to the "new" Platform feed! when this happened and my mare was out in pasture 24-7 with occasional stall confinement in very severe weather before she came to my place in August. My mare is not over wieght at all either and never was... :no: Here she is stalled at night because we have no choice for now since we have no shelter outdoors in freezing temperatures and bad weather in WI, however her stall she is in now at night is 12x14 so it is plenty big enough for a 34" mare. OH and she is not bred either so there is not a problem there as far as treatment hurting a foal.

I have pulled ALL Feed except hay from my mare over the last almost two months except for a very small handful (and I mean SMALL) for her minerals. :no: The handful of feed is Equine Senior .

With my mare there is no other way to explain it other than her muscles are HARD AS ROCKS ESPECAILLY HER REAR END and she is VERY STIFF it appears in all FOUR LEGS. That is why we thought ABCESSES in her feet at first? But that has been checked numerous times and NOTHING. :no:

:

Some days she does appear a little better then others and the bute lasts for about 4 days for her but she still walks stiff but not nearly as painful (it appears that way anyway) We let her out everyday, however when she is painful you have to go get her when its time to come in at night because she just stands at the fence line or the feeder at the edge of the paddock and never hardly moves at all. It is very frustrating not knowing what is wrong. :no:

Jeri

 

[ChrystalPaths]

I will agree with Jane, Carolyn. I would allow her a handful of feed just so she doesn't stress but do keep the hay and out much as you can. Treat the symptoms and I think you'll see a new horse within a week.

 

[kaykay]

aww poor sophie. i felt the first time it was definitely tying up syndrome. Isnt she also in foal? How far along is she?

 

[HaazeMinis]

Should I try to do the same?

:

Jeri

 

[Frankie]

Jeri, read this page,,,,,,,,,it will help you I think. It sure does sound the same.

http://www.equinehospital.net/azoturia.htm

Kay, she is not in foal. Originally was told yes,,,,,,,,,,but since all these test done, no. You know how those tests can be, but just my gut feeling, by looking, is no.

It is gut wrenching to watch her walk. I want to pick her up and carry her. If there is a good part, all of what I read says for some reason they do it twice, this is second time,,,,,,,,and when treated and under control, they never seem to do it again.

I can only hope.

 

[kaykay]

im so sorry to hear this. you know shes my favorite. this pregnacy thing is kinda nagging me though. can you post pics of what shes doing?

 

[HaazeMinis]

Jeri, read this page,,,,,,,,,it will help you I think. It sure does sound the same.

http://www.equinehospital.net/azoturia.htm

THANKS FRANKIE! I will be reading it!

:

It is gut wrenching to watch her walk. I want to pick her up and carry her. If there is a good part, all of what I read says for some reason they do it twice, this is second time,,,,,,,,and when treated and under control, they never seem to do it again.

I can only hope.

I know it makes me feel like SUCH A BAD MOMMY!! It really does make you want to carry her because it is so painful to watch her in such pain..and feel what you are doing is not enough... :no:

We have never had this happen here. I have not had minis all that long (2003), however I had big horses many years before that and never had a problem...

: :no:

Thanks again for the link Frankie and For the advice Rabbit

: . I remember now that my sisters big horse mare would get that problem many many years ago, but I cant for the life of me remember what we did for her. Maybe I will call my Mom and ask what we did for her since I was just 15 or 16 at the time, so this has been many moons ago.

:

 

[Frankie]

Kay, not sure a picture would actually show it.

But she does think about each step, and acts like she is afraid to, like the ground won't be there, or hold her. If she picks up speed more than a slow, slow walk, you can see her have to adjust side to side.

Have spoke with the new vet,,,I love this women,,,,,,,,we are starting with this.

Electrolyte treatment, bute morning and night, stall rest for 4 days,,,,,that is due in part to how cold it is here and muscles will tighten with cold weather naturally,,and we want to control her fluid intake,,she is already extremely tight, she gets 4 cups of grain morning and night,,,,,next 2 days will go to 2 cups,,,,,then the next 2 days 1 cup,,,,,,and then will take her off completely for 4 days,,,,,and then start adding back 1/2 cup at a time, per every week.

If she is not any better in 4 days,,,or gets any worst,,,,will go to muscle relaxer type treatment.

 

[HaazeMinis]

Kay, not sure a picture would actually show it.

But she does think about each step, and acts like she is afraid to, like the ground won't be there, or hold her. If she picks up speed more than a slow, slow walk, you can see her have to adjust side to side.

Same here Frankie! You are right a picture does not really show what is going on, however a video might.

:

,,,,,,we are starting with this.

Electrolyte treatment, bute morning and night, stall rest for 4 days,,,,,that is due in part to how cold it is here and muscles will tighten with cold weather naturally,,and we want to control her fluid intake,,she is already extremely tight,

I have Gatorade? Will that do it?

: It is way below zero here so the horses will be staying in anyway today except for stall cleaning time this afternoon. Also, frankie do you notice with sophie that once she is down in her stall she does not really want to get up? Then after she is up she has to think about taking steps forward and has to place her feet just so? :no: Not just front but all feet? Appears that way anyway? :no:

If she is not any better in 4 days,,,or gets any worst,,,,will go to muscle relaxer type treatment.

Humm! Let me know what happens and what type of relaxer if it comes down to that. I am calling my vet as well to discuss this with him as well. So please let me know (PM if you want)and I will let you know. I have already cut her Feed back so that is not a problem and since we have switched her to Senior (just a very small hand full) she has adjusted okay. She never lost her appetite. Thank Goodness.

 

[Frankie]

The main thing here is,,,,,,,as of right now,,,,,she has no damage,,,,,,,but need to be careful of the kidneys,,,,so I would think she needs more than gatorade. I have been told to put Electrolytes in small amount of warm water and use a syringe.

If you have reduced her grain and she is still not better,,,,,,,,,take it away.

Did you say she has been on bute????? Did she improve????

Sophie does improve on bute.

The laying down part is the same,,,,,it takes her forever to get up and when she is trying to, she looks at me like,,,,,,,,do I have to?

I'm glad you are talking with your vet. Although it sounds to be exactly the same, since I have not seen your mare, I can not say,,,,,remember, we are not sure it is the problem we believe it to be, and treatment for is not going to hurt her,,,,,,,,so use your gut, talk with your vet to do what is needed for your mare.

 

[HaazeMinis]

The main thing here is,,,,,,,as of right now,,,,,she has no damage,,,,,,,but need to be careful of the kidneys,,,,so I would think she needs more than gatorade. I have been told to put Electrolytes in small amount of warm water and use a syringe.

Okay I will discuss this with my vet this morning. I need to call him anyway to let him know how she is progressing this weekend anyway since she seemed to be improving mid week last week ...

: However, now I see she is slipping back again as of last night. However it could be the Bute wearing off since we have been trying to let her go 3 to 4 days before having to dose her again to see if there is actually improvement and if so how much improvement.

: Boy this is frustrating...

:

If you have reduced her grain and she is still not better,,,,,,,,,take it away.

Okay I will totally take her off of it and her minerals too, (born to win). Vet said that was okay, but I will try anything at this point to help her.

Did you say she has been on bute????? Did she improve????

Sophie does improve on bute.

YES, She improves on Bute. She has UlcerGard with each dose of Bute as well. I will Pm you in a minute as I have a another question.

:

The laying down part is the same,,,,,it takes her forever to get up and when she is trying to, she looks at me like,,,,,,,,do I have to?

Tabby is the SAME WAY..Looks at me like please dont make me do this and it does take her for ever to finally get up and sometimes I have to really encourage her to get up in the morning and I feel so bad making her get up, but I know she needs to get up. :no:

I'm glad you are talking with your vet. Although it sounds to be exactly the same, since I have not seen your mare, I can not say,,,,,remember, we are not sure it is the problem we believe it to be, and treatment for is not going to hurt her,,,,,,,,so use your gut, talk with your vet to do what is needed for your mare.

I am using my Gut instinct on this and know in my heart it was caused by the change to the new feed since that was the ONLY Change and she just happened to be sensitive to it..I do believe we are having the smae issues with both our mares and I would never NOT consult my vet with anything I am trying on this mare or any of my others. He is a great vet and knows I have horse knowledge and is very open to trying different treatments to see if it might help. He is not closed minded at all. Thank Heavens! He also has minis himself to that helps too.

:

Thanks Again Frankie!

:

Jeri

 

[Lori]

This probably isn't the case, but the symptoms are so similar. I have a good friend that had similar symptoms with her chow last fall. It started around October/November. They were initially treating her for hip dysplasia and possible intestinal infection with antibiotics. All her test kept coming back normal. She sought out several vets and when she finially ended up with a specialist in December. 3 vets missed it. The poor dog could hardly walk, she was in so much pain. The specialist finially found that she had a disease caused/carried by ticks. It is treated with a certain antibiotic and she is responding. She is also here in Indiana. I can't remember the specific disease name. I think it is similar to Lyme Disease in people, but different. I hadn't heard of this one before. Like I said, probably not, just thought I'd mention it. I know horses dont' usually get ticks, but I'm sure it's not impossible. Especially with the weather we had here. They were horrible this year. I picture her dog walking when you described your mare. If you want the name of it, just PM me and I'll get it. Good Luck with your mare, you have to be so frustrated. Lori