Jet has an about face

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LindaL

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Our gelding Jet was always pretty easy going...never had a problem handling him at all (except he is a little touchy with his back feet, but we have always worked thru that one by being patient). But, ever since we moved the horses to a different barn (last place they had free run into a stall and a pasture to go out in...new place they are stalled unless we turn out which they are 5 days/week when we work them), clipped him (which was pretty traumatic for all involved...twitch, meds, and some man-handling)...he has had a bad attitude! He is nervous and a bit untrusting. He doesn't stand for taking his clothes off or putting them back on and is muzzle shy. He will rear and/or put his butt to you in a threatening way (has not kicked). I am working with him on trust (letting him come to me, holding my hand out so he will touch it with his muzzle instead of me attempting to touch him and just being patient, but I am also not going to let him be "bad" either and use a stern voice to let him know he is misbehaving. I feel bad, because 1) I feel like I "ruined" a nice gelding with all the stuff he went thru recently and 2) I do not know how to "fix" it.

Also, once we get him settled down and trusting us again...we will have to clip him again! I'm almost thinking I don't wanna go thru that again (for both our sakes), but he is our show geldng.

(Btw, just to clarify...when I say "trauma" I do not mean there was any pain/abuse involved (well, except for the humans being bruised)...just not a very "happy" time).
 
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Wow! Thats a big change. Does anyone else handle Jet besides you and Deb? I wonder if it has anything to do with what happened up there recently just down the barn from him. That can be quite traumatic for some horses to deal with. Believe me they do know when another horse dies. Not too mention all the comotion of getting that particular horse out of the stall and down the barn. It might just take him awhile to recover from that.

I hope he calms down for you soon. He seemed very happy and calm when I was up there a couple weeks ago.
 
We do work with rescued horses and one thing that I have found works great is Solace (canada) powder (ex-stress in the states). I give it to the horse/mini in the morning feed on days that I know are going to be a little more stressfull. You can feed it everyday if needed. I'd also check his feed to make sure that the starch levels are low. Nothing puts a horse more on edge then starch high feeds when they don't have enough time to run it off.

http://www.peakperformancenutrients.com/EquineSupplements/ex-stress.asp
 
We do work with rescued horses and one thing that I have found works great is Solace (canada) powder (ex-stress in the states). I give it to the horse/mini in the morning feed on days that I know are going to be a little more stressfull. You can feed it everyday if needed. I'd also check his feed to make sure that the starch levels are low. Nothing puts a horse more on edge then starch high feeds when they don't have enough time to run it off.
What is the dose you use for a mini??
 
On the clipping issue, I am with you. I have to clip Shake a little earlier tan I wanted to, if we decide to go to Carthage. I plan to tranq him so we don't have a bad experience until I can get him the rest of the way trusting with his ears and the clippers. I haven't trid to do them yet, but I handle them all of the time. Maybe you could try what Shake and I are doing.

When I work with him and he does a good thing, I go to him and pet him, make a big deal over him, and then I gently rub my hand up his ears. I read once that this releases endorphins like a accupressure spot. That's where we started. I still do that and I also added cleaning the insides of his ears with baby wipes when we groom. I started with just rubbing the outside of the ear, but now I can put my fingers all the way into his ears and he doesn't seem to mind. Most recently, I've started putting cotton balls gently into his ears, just like I wold if I was going to clip them. He wasn't sure that he was okay with that at first, but now, he pays it no mind.

Good luck!
 
First thing I would say is watch what happens in the barn.

I have had my whole herd (Of 5) Drastically change from friendly happy horses to angry little horses. Much the same sound as Jet. I found out that the people there who were not suppose to be doing anything with my horses were mistreating my animals. (I dont even like others feeding for me).

The one lady would take the kids over OOOOHHHHH LOOOK AT THE CUTE PONY. And then hands would be shoved in their faces or jackets would hit them in the head when people reached over.

The one mini almost foundered even though there was a sign on the door saying DO NOT FEED SCRAPS TO THE MINIS!. DO NOT FEED THE MINIS. Any questions please call

The people who ran the barn were under the orders that short of having to rescue my horses from an UNKNOWN life threatening problem NOT TO TOUCH THEM.

Now I know this sounds horrible but I want to be there when things or people touch and interact with my horses. Or how am I to know if something is bugging them that day or not. If they are sore or afraid when I work with them. They went from being confident non spooky friendly affection horses to as I said very angry and distrustful horses.

I moved them from that barn and to my home. Where unfortunately there's no place to work them or anything. But they are happy.

As for the clipping I would suggest clicker training. And do little bits at a time. We have a gelding (Large POA Pony) Who was PETRIFIED of the clippers to the point where he would try and kill. He would flip himself over rear and strike, taking CHUNKS of his feet off by ripping shoes off. And unfortunately the people we got him from showed him that if you do this enough they cant get the twitch on and you dont have to be clipped.

With him because he was a lot bigger and very dangerous we bought a set of really nice softly padded hobbles and put them on his front feet. (In a very very soft arena) We would turn the clippers on and he would try and strike. He broke a wall once because someone who wasn't even in the same alley way as us turned clippers on and he freaked out. So every time he would try and strike he would yank the other foot out from under himself as well. When he stood there we clicked and treated. We had to repeat this over several days. This was just turning them on. Then we graduated to just touching him with them. Same thing when he stood clippers touching (not cutting) click treat. Everything was done in the arena with the hobbles on for about 2-3 weeks. Then we had to graduate to the ears and head and again lots of time and patience.

He is now so easy to clip EVERYWHERE you don't even need a halter. Not even for the insides of his ears or anything. Just stands there almost asleep (other than to beg for cookies though he knows now he only gets them at the end if he has been good)
 
End Level Farms, did you find out beyond a shadow of a doubt that they were being mishandled or did you go by how they were reacting to it? I mean - how did you find out they were being mishandled? How does one go about finding out what happens to your horse when you aren't there during a boarding situation? My horse is in training right now and I feel comfortable and confident of where she is and how she is treated but when she is home she is in a boarding facility and for several days before she left I came to the barn to work her and there were people I had never met giving her a cookie. I try to be nice to the BO because I don't know what goes on when I'm not around.
 
We do work with rescued horses and one thing that I have found works great is Solace (canada) powder (ex-stress in the states). I give it to the horse/mini in the morning feed on days that I know are going to be a little more stressfull. You can feed it everyday if needed. I'd also check his feed to make sure that the starch levels are low. Nothing puts a horse more on edge then starch high feeds when they don't have enough time to run it off.
What is the dose you use for a mini??

You can safety feed them 1 scoop twice a day but I find that 1/2 a scoop is all I need.
 
End Level Farms, did you find out beyond a shadow of a doubt that they were being mishandled or did you go by how they were reacting to it? I mean - how did you find out they were being mishandled? How does one go about finding out what happens to your horse when you aren't there during a boarding situation? My horse is in training right now and I feel comfortable and confident of where she is and how she is treated but when she is home she is in a boarding facility and for several days before she left I came to the barn to work her and there were people I had never met giving her a cookie. I try to be nice to the BO because I don't know what goes on when I'm not around.

Maggiemae,

I found out without a shadow of a doubt. I did this by coming at unexpected times. Having friends who also had wavers signed come on the property and "Visit" my minis unexpectedly. My farrier and my vet also worked with me on "CATCHING" them in the act. And when that wasn't enough for the owner of the barn I had a small camera installed (With her permission) And sent to a VCR recorder. I wont go into more details about what went on but it was enough to make me want to seriously hurt the people involved.

It was a very bad situation.

Luckily my minis tell me loud and clear when something is not right. I have had a few boarding stables in the past where to look at them they weren't much but the minis loved it. Others that look like a million dollars beautiful pristine everything and they were the least happiest.
 
With the "Michigan's" bred horses you have to be very slow moving, very gentle and talk softly with lots of praise with patting their neck, no roughness. They are totally different than other horses, this came from Dr. Taylor on how to manage a Michigan bred horse. They are hot horses.

The Michigan bred horses have to learn to trust you and they also have to have confidence in you as well, if there has been a change in the routine or something happened, they will go backwards and you will have to build their trust and confidence up again. The slower moving ....the better

No matter how upset you get about things, you have to watch on how you handle them or they will be ruined and will not trust anyone ever again, there has been many people I have seen in the past had that happen to as well.

We have quite a few Michigan miniature horses and some are Moderns that are Michigan bred as well, and you have to really think in what your doing and move slowly.

Whatever changed recently definetly will have an effect on him, you will just have to take things very slowly and work with him with lots of patience and he will come around, what ever you do.....re assure him that things will be okay and don't use force or they will rebel. In time he will come around.

Hopefully nobody did anything at the barn to him while you and Deb are not around.
 
The barn I board the horses at is a "small" privately owned stable where everyone knows everyone, so there has not been anyone "new" coming thru or anyone (other than Erin) who handles the horses besides me or Deb.

This all stemmed from the move, then days of clipping (yes, took 3 days to get him totally done) and then a show, so I'm sure he was/is stressed out. But, that was 2 weeks ago and he should have "gotten over" it by now I would have thought. He is good for us when we lead/work him, but when we brush/pick feet or do his blankets is when he acts "afraid".

I thought about the feed (which we switched up slightly) but the others are fine, so I don't think it's that.

The only other thing I can think of is he may be "teething" (he is 3), but I have never has a horse act nervous or untrusting due to that.

I'm pretty sure it all is from his experience with the clipping...and maybe his being "Michigan bred" does have something to do with it, because my yearling colt (who is not Michigan bred, but did have the same clipping experience as Jet) is totally fine.
 
Some horses, you have to really work for their confidence and respect but ONCE YOU DO you will have a horse that gives its all for you. Not all horses are alike.

I have some of the challenges you do, in that my stallion is stalled and is only "out" when I am there to work him. Unfortunately, there just isn't any option for pasture or large turnout here, and I am sure my guy would benefit from something like that because he is high-energy and loves to play. So therefore, I do my best to indulge him.

Clipping is a fear that many horses have. And fears can get better or worse depending on how they are handled. Obviously your guy has had a bad experience, and that will take a long time to overcome. It will take an extreme amount of patience and dedication for you to work with him, if you want a horse that is a pleasure to clip. I am sure you can be successful but it will take a long time. Obviously slow desensitization and reward is the route to go. I would recommend that if you have to clip for a show in the meantime, use tranquilizers so you don't undo any other work you do. My "bad" horses are clipped at least once a week and I do bridle paths, muzzles, and fetlocks which are generally the "uncomfortable" areas for them. The ears... well I have never been a stickler for ears and I just clip what the horse will let me. I've never tranquilized or twitched a horse to clip... I just have patient marathon sessions! But that is my own personal way and it IS strenuous, but it pays off in the end. My stallion started out as a three-month-old weanling that I couldn't get anywhere near, and now he lets me shove clippers down his ears three years later like it's no big deal. But it took a very long time. Now I only clip him up once a month. "Bad" horses also get what the lady at my barn calls the "moth eaten" treatment.... I clip at them all over and they sort of look moth eaten with patches of hair missing everywhere, but all year long I clip at them with clippers so they don't forget their lessons during the long non-show season. Since you basically have to clip the minis before every show, it's an important life skill for them.

As to the attitude, I bet part of that is from boredom. Every day I go into my stallion's stall before his grooming-workout-playtime-feeding-session, he gives me what I call "cranky ears" where he faces me and pins his ears back. It's not that he's aggressive or being mean or anything, it's just his way of expressing "Geez mom, where have you been, I REALLY want out of here!" and I just wait patiently with the halter to catch him until he gives me "happy ears". I wait for "happy ears" before letting him eat his food or going out to play, and then reward him accordingly. I believe some horses develop this way of expression, even though you might read it as a "bad attitude." I would be willing to bet anyone who doesn't know my colt would guess him to have a "bad attitude" by watching his ears and the faces he makes, but he's actually sweet and playful and very bonded to me. I believe it's just because of his situation, and I don't think he's ACTUALLY MISERABLE or upset or peeved off.

To combat this "crankiness" that my stallion has, I give him a lot of grooming, as much physical work daily as I can, and I try to challenge his brain while I'm working with him by varying his routine and doing a lot of random stuff each day like learning tricks, setting up for halter randomly (on the way to the arena, suddenly ask him to set up, or whatever) and taking him for walks out of the area.

I also make sure daily that I "touch everywhere" and usually I do that while he is eating his grain. I touch his sheath (udder if it's a mare), under his tail, his belly, his ears, grab his face and pet his eyes and muzzle, and grab his tongue. I have found he actually likes me to hold his tongue while he is getting his shoes nailed on! It's his favorite! I think that it helps horses to trust you if you are constantly running your hands over them. Find their favorite itchy spots, and use itches as a reward when they do something you like (if you have trouble picking up feet, pick up the foot, give it back, and then reward on that itchy spot).

Find a routine that you can get into, that will involve incorporating as much as possible into the time you have. I only have an hour or two per day that I can dedicate to both my horses, so I have to cram grooming, exercise, bonding, feeding, cleaning, and clipper time in as efficiently as possible to maximize efficiency.

Some horses require a lot more than others, some horses you can clip once a year and they don't care. Some horses can stand in a stall for a week and don't get pent up. My horse, well he's not like that. And maybe yours isn't either. They are all individuals and have different environmental circumstances.

Get to know him, give him a chance, and work as slowly and carefully as you can. I know you will turn him back around, it just takes time and patience.

Good luck,

Andrea
 
After Scott would bath Jet I would start to clip Jet, I would use a 30 blade and start with his rump then work to his sides and then do the head and save the legs below the knee and his ears last.

When I did the ears and below the knee, Scott always had to use a twitch on his nose or a clippy. It took me one hour and ten minutes to do Jet or any others besides the Classic or our Moderns which took me 20 minutes longer.

What type of feed are you giving him and how much, it might be too high octane for him. He always was good standing and putting his sleezys and blankets on, ect for us.

Something has changed and he needs to trust you and you will have to learn patience and being slow, gentle movements and he will come around.

Dr. Taylor always preaches "Praise and Patience" and Jet is full blooded Michigan top and bottom.
 
I agree totally with both Coventry Lane and Disneyhorse, as usual. lol

My Michigan's horse (my only horse) would very easily be hotter than a pistol if he weren't given an outlet for his energy. Is Jet only getting out five days a week because that's all that your schedule allows? If you trust your barn officer, then I would suggest having her turn him out for you on the off two days. If you don't trust your barn officer, move your horses.

I totally understand the boarding situation, I am also boarding Shake out. When he first got there, I thought it may be a problem because everyone wanted to come see him. Now, he's kind of old hat and (though he still has his 'fan club') people just say hi to him and move on by, just like any other horse in the barn.

When Shake first came to me, he was exactly as Pam had said. He was hot, nervous, and didn't trust anyone because he didn't know any of us. I could tell he had a good foundation and solid basics because he was very hot, but very reasonable. We have since stared building a bond and I can do pretty much whatever I need to do with him now. He's very relaxed about things in the stable. But, when working with a hot horse, especially one bred to be hot and trotty, the horse has to have an outlet for that part of his personality.

For example, Shake knows that, when we work on halter, he is to nail down and pay attention. He doesn't blow me off, he doesn't want kisses, he just stands there and does his job. If he wants to prance around and get silly after I release him from whatever I'm asking him to do, then he is just expressing himself and I stay out of his way. But, when he's not being asked to be 'on,' he will mellow right out, hang out with me and we buddy around together. Maybe Jet needs an outlet to be the horse he is too. When working with a hot horse, like Disneyhorse said (paraphrasing here)...you have to work with them and not against them.
 
Actually to be honest, we have had Jet since September and until 3 weeks ago, I never thought of Jet as "hot". He was very easy to work with...well, still is really. But, you can also see in his eye the "mistrust" when doing stuff around his body...like he expects me to hurt him.

He does need more turn out time, tho...I agree and will talk to Erin and the barn owner to see how that can be arranged (only so many pastures and stallions will need to be rotated. Jet could go out with mares (he is the only gelding of the Minis at the barn) if needed and he does get along with my yearling colt Khan, but Khan is mounting him now and Jet gets annoyed with his silliness.
 
I was wondering if when you were clipping him, if the clippers possibly got hot and actually burnt him. I know most people keep a good eye on their clipper blades, but they can get hot quick, and if he wasnt cooperating, you may have been trying to clip as quickly as possible, and not noticed they were hot. If they did burn him, it would have made the experience more tramatic, and he may be expecting it to actually hurt when something comes near his face or head. When dressing/undressing him are they blankets that open at the chest, or closed front where you have to put them over his head?
 
I was wondering if when you were clipping him, if the clippers possibly got hot and actually burnt him. I know most people keep a good eye on their clipper blades, but they can get hot quick, and if he wasnt cooperating, you may have been trying to clip as quickly as possible, and not noticed they were hot. If they did burn him, it would have made the experience more tramatic, and he may be expecting it to actually hurt when something comes near his face or head. When dressing/undressing him are they blankets that open at the chest, or closed front where you have to put them over his head?

No, I am very concientious of the heat of blades while clipping and change them often (I have 3-4 blades handy for just that reason), so I know that wasn't an issue.
 
Actually to be honest, we have had Jet since September and until 3 weeks ago, I never thought of Jet as "hot". He was very easy to work with...well, still is really. But, you can also see in his eye the "mistrust" when doing stuff around his body...like he expects me to hurt him.

He does need more turn out time, tho...I agree and will talk to Erin and the barn owner to see how that can be arranged (only so many pastures and stallions will need to be rotated. Jet could go out with mares (he is the only gelding of the Minis at the barn) if needed and he does get along with my yearling colt Khan, but Khan is mounting him now and Jet gets annoyed with his silliness.
There is a new mare coming in on the first that if you don't mind can share turnout with Jet. They should get along great together and the back pasture will be opened up again so there shouldn't be any issues of them getting a pasture to share. Ok so yippee! Duckie is coming home from the trainer and we will be doing some driving up there in the arena and she will be boarded there till Vicky and her get used to each others style. Just talk to Erin see if she can put Jet out for you.

If you want to start with just half a day you can talk to Vicky and see if she can put him out when she puts Duckie out. There will be days when Vicky won't be able to do it and her husband will be up there but he won't be able to handle Jet if he is being a pill.
 
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I am wondering if his teeth are the issue...either his caps or maybe hooks. We have a 10 year old gelding, who became head shy and spooky. He would go the back of his stall and turn his head away,and jump when you first touched him. Since he is home with us, we knew no one was treating him badly......I was sure he was going blind!! But to make a long story short his teeth were floated and all signs of spookyness and shyness disappeared. Now his head is over his stall looking for treats and cuddles
 

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