Mini Guide Horses

[FoRebel]

If anyone is interested in reading the article here it is!

Tiny Horse is a Big Help to Blind Owner

 

[Reble]

Excellent article, so nice to see what they can do best

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[Marty]

I am not amused

:smileypuke: :smileypuke: :smileypuke: :smileypuke: :smileypuke: :smileypuke: :smileypuke: :smileypuke: :smileypuke: :smileypuke: :smileypuke: :smileypuke: :smileypuke: :smileypuke:

And as a matter of FACT, I'd like to direct you to:

http://www.guidehorseno.com

 

[Mona]

I'm with Marty...I'm not amused either. You know what I would really like to see happen? I would like to have the NFB and the GHF each select their most well trained guide animals, have someone unknowing of the reason set up an obstacle type course through city, town and country streets/situations, and have them work head to head in a demonstration, and have CNN cover that LIVE! NO editing!!

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Oh yes, and both handlers must be totally blind! They can have 3 months training with their particular animal in advance to get to know one another and learn to work with each other, before the actual competition.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

No, me neither

Just another load of free advertising for an unneeded, basically unwanted product.

It will be interesting to see, however, just how royally screwed up one of these poor little things will be, both physically and mentally, after a lifetimes work in total isolation form their own kind.

Must be a living heck for them.

 

[ClickMini]

All right, the CNN page is not working for me, so I can't see the article. I do know that "The Horse" magazine just did an article about the guide horse Panda.

I appreciate the concern that people have about miniatures as guides. I will tell you that I spent 10 full days with Ann and Panda, and Panda is an exceptional guide. Any animal would be LUCKY to lead the life that Panda does. I am currently a miniature horse owner because of Ann and Panda. I had no exposure to minis prior to that experience, and I was SO DEAD IMPRESSED with that little mare.

If I were 100% blind, as Ann is, I would absolutely in one heartbeat use a mini as a guide...especially one trained in the manner that Panda has been. You will note my name ClickMini and that is because I am a clicker trainer. Panda was trained using 100% positive reinforcement techniques.

Ann used guide dogs prior to using Panda. SHE PREFERS PANDA. I would take her experience over anyone else's armchair quarterbacking any day.

I do get a little tired of seeing the knee jerk reactions to the topic, I know that some people have had run-ins with some other people that are involved with miniature blind guides and I am sure that this is a good part of why this happens. Being good clicker trainers, Ann and Alexandra do not ever respond to negative input. In the hopes that someday the behavior will extinguish.

Just understand that you do not have a 100% view of this topic, and sometimes it is best to keep an open mind.

Thank you,

Also, Jane, Panda is not isolated from her own kind, and is very well-adjusted. Much more so than many of the backyard animals I see regularly.

 

[tagalong]

I do get a little tired of seeing the knee jerk reactions to the topic,

That seems like a wee bit of a knee-jerk reaction itself...

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Amy - with all due respect - you may not be 100% aware of past Guide Horse issues and the nonsense that has occurred. Please do not condemn others until you know the whole story. From all sides.

I am sure Panda is exceptional and wonderfully trained. But to assume that any mini can achieve that and handle the situations involved - even if clicker-trained... goes against the natural inclination of a horse - and may not be the best approach to the situation....

You said it best yourself...

Just understand that you do not have a 100% view of this topic, and sometimes it is best to keep an open mind.

 

[ClickMini]

I have not had the chance to look over the whole site, and I can only give you valid examples from my own personal experience.

Safety: I have seen Panda completely ignore barking dogs that have come out to "greet" them. When she ignored them and I mean completely, they just went away. Traffic: I have seen Panda work doing traffic checks. That means they start going into a cross-walk, a vehicle turns in front of them. Panda quickly blocks Ann from going forward. This is known as "intelligent disobedience" in animal training, and it is an animal recognizing danger to their handler and protecting them from it. I HAVE SEEN THIS MYSELF, both things. Escalators: There are always stair options available and Panda is trained to go up and down stairs, and does it quite easily. I would not put a dog on an escalator, either. Overhead obstacles: Panda observes overhanging obstacles, and steers Ann around them. Changes in elevation, or footing texture: Panda ALWAYS stops and lets Ann check it out when there is a footing hazard, such as a curb. One of the big concerns of guide animal trainers when sidewalks were made with cutdown ramps for wheelchair accessibility was that it made it difficult for a guide animal to discern where the "edge" was. Panda has demonstrated that she understands the difference in the footing (they have texturing on those ramps) and the coloration, and she always stops for Ann. Ann is a teacher, and Panda accompanies her to the school. Panda does quite well navigating the crowded school corridors and stays quietly waiting to go out on her breaks.

Panda lives an excellent life. She has a yard with grass to graze on. Ann is a horsewoman who also owns a full-sized horse. Panda is around a lot of horses, as Ann is actively involved in horse activities and takes Panda along with her. Panda is trained to be indoors so she is quite comfortable there as well. If she needs a "relief" break, she goes and rings a bell hanging on the door. Panda plays games and quite enjoys them. She is very loved and well cared-for.

If there are specific questions that I can address I would be happy to do so. I would say that there is really no one that loves their horses more than I do, and if Alexandra wanted to buy a horse from me to train as a guide, I would not only sell her the horse I would be absolutely ecstatic about it. Of course there is a caveat with horses as guides, JUST AS THERE IS WITH DOGS!!! Not every one of them is going to be "right for the job." Panda can ignore dogs. Some others can't. Trust me, there are dogs that have problems with this also!!! They are social and want to greet their "new friends!" Some horses are calm and others more high-strung. I would say of my own herd, there are only two that I would consider possibly capable of doing that job, that is Alladdin and Esprit. They have the right temperament. I would never consider for one second putting Flirt or Gaia in that job. They are way too hot!

Anyway, I just think it is wrong to paint all of it with the same brush. There is a lot to learn about that sort of thing, and I think if some minis can be trained to play a very important role in improving a person's life, that should be something to celebrate and learn more about. The partnership between those animals and their handlers is really unparalleled. Horses have participated with humans as work partners throughout history...why do so many people think this is wrong? I truly do not get it.

I am not going to engage in an argument, I am perfectly aware of all of the issues in the past. I am only saying that I have personal experience with this and most, if not all, of the people who object to it do not. I would like to share some photos I took during our time together. Panda was still in training at this point, nearing the end of the formal part of it. Ann and Panda were just starting to become truly confident in one another.

If you can open up your heart and mind to this, can you see how special it is?

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Yes it is special, without a doubt.

She is also, unless you know differently, the only one.

I do not understand why, when it is not in any way broke, or even exhibiting problems, it has to be mended??

The number of horses that have failed is huge- in fact this is the only "success" that I have ever heard of from reliable sources.

A fair percentage of dogs fail but they are part of a HUGE breeding and training campaign, the animal used is already devoted to helping people (which horses are not) and is born wishing to please them- Labradors and Goldies especially so.

Blind people do not normally have to buy their dogs. (Well, not in the UK anyway- in fact it would not be possible to)

The list goes on.

Why on earth try to mould God alone knows how many horses into a shape they were never meant to fit in order to find one or too that can be pushed into that shape- by whatever means!!!

It just makes no sense to me.

After all, pigs are a lot more intelligent than horses- so why not guide pigs???

Because they do not have the appeal of Mini Horses, that is why- even though the owner would not care less as they actually cannot judge on looks or appeal.

Sorry but, no thanks.

 

[Reble]

Oh thank you for the pictures enjoyed them :aktion033:

I am one that looks at the positive side and yes have an open mind.

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Thanks for sharing

 

[ClickMini]

I believe that the failure is that of training, not of miniature horses as a whole. There is a huge washout rate with dogs as well. One of the intents of training Panda using clicker training and positive reinforcement was to prove that it can be done without the use of aversives, and that the same training program and ideas could be applied to training dogs as guides.

I would like to educate people to the possibility of what clicker training can and does create in an animal. It creates that "want to" that other training programs just don't. Panda is a true shining example of what clicker training can create in an animal.

I think if Danny doesn't sell, I may at some point teach him to do the work of an assistance animal. Not a blind guide, I do not have the understanding of that training to do it. But as an assistance animal such as what would be required for someone with mobility issues.

 

[Marty]

My mother was blind so I have a lot of experience with the blind.

It was hard enough for her to manuever through the house let alone the thought of having a horse in here.

Not a chance would I have ever entrust my mother with a guide horse.

I am a huge fan of Amy's and I mean HUGE and I also love clicker training. But as for this subject.....I cannot open my mind to favor it.

 

[Just Us N Texas]

Careful everyone, just drop the topic, and let's not have the trouble we had once before on the forum. There are those of us who don't think that horses are suitable as guides, and those of us who think they would not be. Let's remember Mona's signature line and try to apply that to this subject. No amount of saying it can be or it can't be will sway the other.

edited to add not

 

[tagalong]

If you can open up your heart and mind to this, can you see how special it is?

Ummmm...

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My heart and mind are wiiiide open, thanks. I can see the Positive Side as well. I can see how special - and UNIQUE Panda is (and that is the key here) - and I have never said otherwise. Perhaps because I have seen some agility dogs soured on clicker-training - I do not see it as the be all and end all, Holy Grail of training that you do. First rule of animal communication - there is no One Way. Every animal - and person - is an individual... and what works for one may not work for another. Positive reinforcement comes in many forms. If every mini who showed that they might be able to handle this was trained by Alexandra Kurland herself - that might work in those cases. But Alexandra herself is exceptional - as is Panda.

I helped coordinate the beginning phases of testing minis for Therapy use so they could be certified here. The program was even featured on Evening Magazine a couple of years ago. One of our young fillies was given to one of the trainers - and she became one of the first certified Therapy Horses. We used the dog test as a basic guide - and adapted it for minis - using some of the minis here as guinea pigs. We had some who were totally unflappable... some who were concerned... and some who panicked and blew up. Much the same as you would find in any herd. Thus we had a wide range of examples to use in order to set up the acceptable guidelines. I am not uninformed and biased - as you seem to think some of us are, Amy. I have seen the Big Picture of this unfold over the past few years. If you are as aware of a lot of the Nonsense that has gone on as you claim to be - well, then I am confused as to how you seem to feel that the opinions of others means they are close-minded. Open mind - remember?

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Of course dogs have a failure rate as well - that is why there is a large pool to draw from - and only the cream of the crop fit the bill. It is more than training... it is also that individual animal's intelligence and personality that comes into play - dog or horse. No training - not even clicker training - can create that in an individual. The aptitude has to be there first. Thus all the screening and socialization done with Assistance/Guide dogs/puppies in training. The ability to do it comes first - then that is fine-tuned.

I love horses - and dogs... and frankly - can see that dogs are better suited for this. As they have proven time and time again.. JMO.

Just as an aside... I wonder if was Panda spayed or if she is on some kind of hormone treatment....

 

[ClickMini]

I am not going to respond to attacks as I was not being snide in any way. I would just like to respond that I know that Panda has not been spayed or is on any hormonal regimen.

I am not ever saying that guide horses are the be all and end all, just that I have personally experienced a good result, and I am presenting facts from that. Nothing more or less. That relationship and experience convinced me to purchase my first miniature horse, as I saw how special they are.

I have personally experienced nothing but good result from clicker training. Is it for everyone? No it is not. But it is something that someone could consider putting it in their toolbox. FOR ME, it is ALWAYS my first tool of choice.

Having seen the result that I have I can only speak from that experience, and that tells me that for SOME individuals, in SOME circumstances, it MIGHT be an alternative. Not being a vigilante here in any way.

And by the way, I think it is very exciting that you were involved in training horses as therapy animals and I would love to talk with you about that experience at some time.

 

[tagalong]

I am not going to respond to attacks as I was not being snide in any way.

Bolding mine... what attacks??!! :no:

Where has anyone attacked you??

I rephrased a couple of my comments to be clearer - but I have not "attacked".

I do not see any "attacks" in this thread.

But please remember to consider that the experience of others may vary from yours - and that does not make them close-minded - or "wrong".

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I have personally experienced nothing but good result from clicker training. Is it for everyone? No it is not. But it is something that someone could consider putting it in their toolbox.

Absolutely - one's toolbox should be open to many different techniques and approaches... as one size does not fit all. Not even in panty hose - no matter what the label says.

I have been working with minis on therapy visits - uncertified as there was no program - for many years. They went into hotels, hospitals, hospices... up and down elevators, crossed all types of flooring without batting an eye.... accepted their ears being pulled and their noses being tweaked... faced live music, seizures, loud shrieks of delight, people rushing at them, hands inadvertantly pinching etc. ... and we never even had an elimination accident. Althought that may have been more luck and the effects of the haul than potty training at times... :bgrin

And despite all that - IMHO dogs are the wiser choice for a long term career - as being a guide horse would require.

Anyway, when I moved here and went to get my dogs certified (at last) - the instructor/trainer mentioned that someone had a mini they wanted to get tested - and wondered if horses could do that. I said... You bet! - and that was the beginning... I am no longer involved in that program - but helping to set it up was a lot of fun...

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[angel_cowgirl]

My comments are not to sound like their on either side of the equation, someone can ask me personally if they want to know what I think.

But a couple facts I do know and question, why would you not want to put a dog on an escalator? They are well trained for that. Their taught to jump off so far ahead so they don't get hurt etc.

Being legally blind, I have MANY visually impaired and totally blind friends and many have guide animals. I've talked extensively with them how they deal with their animals in different situations because I've been thinking about getting one myself. I even did a juno walk at the last ACB convention (and had an interview from a school since), which I've attended the last 3 ACB national conventions and am now President of one of the affiliates. Almost every year I've been, I've seen a guide horse or two at convention.

I'm still curious and would like to actually SEE a horse fit well in an airplane. I've flown with some of my friends that have dogs and thats one of my concerns about a dog is even they seem to take up a lot of room. I know the horses do it, I just would actually like to see it someday.

 

[FoRebel]

OK, I didn't post this artice to make this into an argument. I posted it to show how much the minis are recieving positive attention in the media.

My honest opinion is if Panda is working well for this woman as a guide horse then GREAT! I don't believe for a second that someone would keep a guide animal if the animal wasn't working.

PLEASE don't make this into an argument and make it so this thread gets closed.... That was not why I posted the article in the first place!!!!!

 

[Leeana]

I thought we were not aloud to talk about this topic on here or maybe i'm confused? Wasnt their a lawsuit or something along those lines?

The link wont work for me or it may just be my computer is slow. I dont want to get in trouble so i'm going to give you the short version of my opinion.

I dont think miniature horses or any horse for that fact is cutt out physically or mentally to do this task. Okay, yes we can hook them to a cart or saddle them up and ride for a few hours but to ask a horse to perform this tast 24/7 is just to much. A horse being in the house is exposed to multiple risks in that enviroment.

I would never let any of my horses or any horse (no matter what the training) lead me down a city street without eyesight. Its just not 'natural' ...i can see so many things going wrong. A horse naturally has 'fight or flight' and you cannot train that out of them, it will always be their. JMO

I dont think its 'cute'.

 

[shminifancier]

I think it is wonderful. And getting things like that on CNN is great for the miniature business in general.

And if I EVER get at what I want to do. And that is writing a book on "How To Housebreak Your Horse" and put in the tons of pictures I have taken over the past 30 years there IS a market out there and this is just one of them~! :bgrin