Opinions Please & appreciated

[Sandy B]

With all the talk about dwarfism and their characteristics I would like to ask you to please look at my web site at www.dandyfarms.net and go to "our horses" page and scroll down to the minis listed on the page. Each horse's sires and dams are listed. These are my 11 year old daughters minis. Most of you read that a month go we lost a mare & un-born foal that suffered from severe dystocia. Myself and my vet were unsuccessful at correcting the dystocia and the head was too large to get out. That tells me more than likely the foal was dwarf???? The front legs (which we were able to get out looked completely normal in size and length. My vet said that it puzzled him that the head was too large in comparison to the fine boned legs. Any way, the mare we lost os the first picture of the mini mares on the page- Lady. The other mare that we are waiting on to foal any day is Rockette, the last mare pictured. She is right at 34" tall and these pictures were taken of her the day we got her and she was really over-weight. You can see in the picture that she has a fat and short neck, although it did look much better once we pulled some weight off of her. Again all these mares are aged pasture shape mares, they are not fitted to look like halter horses. The pinto mare absorbed last year and is open and we will be breeding her. We are using out mini stallion (also shown in pictures), he is a homozygous tobiano with an incredible disposition & athleticism. He is 30.5" tall. He does have a broad little head and tiny ears. Exactly what I love to get in my full sized quarter horses, but in mini version.

Do any of my minis put up a red flag warning or do their bloodlines for dwarfism? If I didn't want honesty, I would not be asking? It is my daughters goal to breed good minded, pretty youth horses, not arabian type halter horses. We want to be informed and make the right decisions.

Thank you!

 

[Tremor]

From the pictures of your mares, no. The last, doesn't have the best confo, but from what I could tell your mares don't have any huge indicators.

EDIT: I also wanted to add, I am glad that my dwarf thread and the Einstien thead has prompted some people to look at their own stock. This topic is one that people NEED to ask more questions about (you CANNOT ask too many questions!) and learn more.

 

[CharlesFamily]

I visited your web site and first, let me say, you have a wonderful site! So easy to navigate and wonderfully done!

Second - I am DROOLING over your reining horses! I come from a QH background and showing a reiner was my life's dream growing up. I never got there, but I loved looking at your pictures and those horses are gorgeous!

Last, and what you actually asked about, is your minis. I don't see anything I would look at and see "dwarf." As you said, older mares in pasture shape - maybe with shorter/thicker necks than are now in style, but lovely horses. Your stallion is gorgeous and I think your daughter is going to have your eye for horses. I think you have put together a nice collection!

Good luck!

Barbara

 

[targetsmom]

I am so sorry about your horrible experience last month and losing both the mare and the foal. However, just because the foal's head was too large for easy delivery does not mean it was a dwarf.

I am by no means an expert in this area, but I have read all the questions and answers on the dwarfism forum when it was posted in 2007. I suggest that is a great starting place to get more information on dwarfism. At that time I also posted a poll on this forum, asking how many breeders had ever had a dwarf foal or dwarf aborted fetus on their farms. Over 40% said they had (I think it was 42% and held steady for days). This is consistent with John Eberth's estimate that between 25 and 40% of all miniature horses carry the dwarf gene. So, realistically, I don't think anyone can tell you for sure that you do or don't have the dwarf gene in your herd. And that goes for anyone elses' herd, until you get a dwarf or until there is a test. Remember, it takes TWO minis to produce a dwarf, and if you breed 2 carriers of the dwarf gene you have a one in four chance of getting a dwarf. So you could breed for years and not get a dwarf, even if you had one or more carriers in your herd. And if you do get a dwarf, it means both the sire and the dam are carriers. I hope this helps.

By the way, I think your stallion is lovely!!!

 

[vickie gee]

Went to your site. First of all, I was very impressed by your horsemanship so I am very humbled to even give you an opinion. IMHO none of your horses look even remotely dwarfy. Sorry about Lady. Just sounds like to me that the head might have been malpositioned. I had a mare with severe dystocia that was saved with a c-section. That little colt also had what appeared to be a domed head. That being a characteristic of minis it would be difficult to make an assumption of dwarf based on that alone. The vet tech thought he looked dwarfy but the vet admitted that he "did not know, could not say, was relieved to have saved the mare." The colt's head was turned all the way onto its own neck so delivery was impossible. Of course any of your horses could be a carrier of a dwarf gene. It is my understanding (and I could be wrong so please rely on further postings from others) that a dwarf is a POSSIBILTY when BOTH the mare and stallion carry at least one dwarf gene. Also unless it has changed there is not a test to test for the dwarf gene. I have a common relative through kinfolks (awkward way of putting it, but it is more awkward than I care to explain) that was getting some dwarfs every year. I finally convinced them that their stallion was for sure a carrier and that obviously "at least some" of the mares were. They finally got rid of that stallion. I do not know if they or buyer gelded him. I explained the need but sadly I don't know the outcome.

 

[Carolyn R]

I once again want to offer my sincere sympathy. It is so true that more often than not, owners have no idea that their minis carry the gene until a dwarf pops up.

Some may have thought my reply to your post last month was a little abrassive, and the last thing I wanted to do was add insult to injury. My heart truely goes out to you and especially your daughter. Unfortunately, as sad and heartbreaking as it was and continues to be, a necropsy may have put your mind at ease.

 

[Marty]

You won $91 th, thou, thoug.....see I can't even say an amount of money that high!!!!!!!Holy freaking mackeral Batman, can I PLEASE borrow that yellow horse for a show or two!!!!!!!!!!!

Very cute non-dwarfy minis!

 

[chandab]

You won $91 th, thou, thoug.....see I can't even say an amount of money that high!!!!!!!Holy freaking mackeral Batman, can I PLEASE borrow that yellow horse for a show or two!!!!!!!!!!!

Very cute non-dwarfy minis!

I'm with Marty on both counts. Gotta love a golden horse, nothing better.

 

[Miniv]

Very nice website......and love the photo of you(?) on the palomino....gorgeous.

I think your daughter has a nice group of horses. No dwarf characteristics that I could see. And your future sire is very handsome.

 

[Ashley]

I see a few faults but nothing that says dwarf. Even the most normal looking horses can have dwarfs, or can be lost to birthing issues.

 

[Genie]

I enjoyed the tour of your web site.

I am not an expert and would not like to make a comment on your minis appearance. I can't tell much from pictures but feel pretty good about my "eye" wen looking at a horse in the flesh.

To me, everything about your web site was enjoyable

 

[kaykay]

I see a few things that I would have issues with in the mares.

Remember pedigree also plays a part so you have to look at the entire picture; not just what you see in front of you.

 

[Sandy B]

Thank you everyone for your kind response to my web site and about my horses. I am glad that that you enjoyed the visit. My horses, dogs and family bless my life everyday!

I am so glad to hear that the majority of you said that you did not see any dwarf characteristics in my little girl's small mini herd. I know the mares are not the best conformationally but she purchased them with her own money and is proud of them and loves them to pieces. My requirement to her was that she purchase larger mini mares, 32"-34" to breed to her small stud. I was hoping that by having larger mares she would have fewer foaling problems. We found out first hand that is not always the case with her first mini mare to go in to labor. We LOVE our stallion Zky Captain or better known as Sky. He is a doll, so sweet and gentle. I love that my daughter can handle him in every aspect. This year she is learning everything about horse breeding. It has been interesting, but she is taking it all in and helping by preparing the mare and holding. We just bred her pinto mini mare.

I am aware that any mini can be a dwarf "carrier" and have done some reading on this board about dwarfs and it seems to be a "crap-shoot" with breeding. I am just grateful for all of you more experienced mini breeders and owners out there to help advise us mini newbies on such issues. As you can tell by my web site I am a very experienced horse owner, exhibitor, trainer and breeder. I take my horse seriously and passionately. I want to make sure that we are responsible and educated in the minis as well. We are learning as we go with these "potato chips"- we adore them!

Again, Thank you so much to all you veteran mini owners for sharing so much information to us mini newbies.

 

[kaykay]

Hi Sandy

I have to disagree with the "crap shoot" statement. If you do due diligence and really research pedigress and are greatly aware of what dwarf characteristics look like, you greatly reduce the chance of producing a dwarf.

I remember back when I first started everyone made excuses for mares with overly long backs saying "it gives them more room to carry a foal" I have always strongly disagreed as it is a dwarf characteristic and a conformation fault. So I have always stayed away from long backed mares.

Another one is the "dishy" head myth. As said before a dishy head is not a bulging forehead. Huge difference.

Nostril placement is another big one that many do not seem to be able to pick out.

Heads longer than their necks; another issue.

So while a horse may not scream dwarf, you can sometimes pick up on some subtle differences. Whether these faults mean a horse is a dwarf carrier (or just poorly conformed) is anyones guess; but if you err on the side of caution and stay away from those horses, you are miles ahead.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I love your site!

Your palomino mare is STUNNING!! What an athlete!

Wowzer!

Your daughter's mini are a very nice little herd. Are they all perfect? No. But who has the perfect horse? I personally don't see anything that says dwarf to me, but sometimes a horse is a carrier with no expression and since there's no test yet, every single one of us could have a carrier and not know it.

As for the horrible experience you had, I'm so sorry for that. But as Mary said, a head too large for an easy foaling doesn't equate to a dwarf. I lost my one and only foal for 2011 the same way. Fortunately for me the mare has survived so far. In my case, the head was presenting with the forehead only, nose and legs all down. A fetotonomy was required, but you know, once that head was no longer attached, it came out very easily. It was just positioned such that it didn't allow for any rearrangement of the foal's position. Once the head was out, legs followed easily. This is a mare that has foaled many, many times before and never one problem. She's never produced a dwarf before and neither has the stallion to my knowledge. This foal was NO dwarf! The head was just positioned wrong and for whatever reason (still for the life of me can't figure out why) there was no room to push her back in and resposition. And the foal was normal sized; probably 17-18" and very fine boned. Who knows why these things happen sometimes.

Again, so sorry for your daughter's loss; but I'd try to let go of the fears about what happened. There is nothing obvious from looking at your herd that leads me to believe you are breeding dwarfs.

 

[Sandy B]

Yes, you do make some outstanding points and over-time your eye for such dwarf characteristics is sharpened to recognize and give you a gut feeling. I unfortunately have not been exposed to dwarfs or involved in minis long enough to have that trained eye. When I said "crap shoot", I read articles in the vault here that the dwarf expert guy (John????) mentioned he has seen stallions produce foals for years and never produce a dwarf then one year- they did. Same with mares. I know that it takes a carrier and a carrier to have a chance at producing one and I think I may have read then its 25%??? So until there is a test for this trait, how do you really know for sure you have carriers? How do I know what bloodlines are more prone to produce dwarfs?

I do like the dishy heads or Arabians, but some of the mini foals I see on show breeders pages with huge alien looking foreheads is what I have a hard time dealing with and question. Again, I am a mini newbie but I have seen lots of top bred Arabian foals over my life that although they have extreme dished faces and large eyes, they are not out of proportion.

Thank you for helping me open my eyes even more. I appreciate everyones thoughts and opinions.

Hi Sandy

I have to disagree with the "crap shoot" statement. If you do due diligence and really research pedigress and are greatly aware of what dwarf characteristics look like, you greatly reduce the chance of producing a dwarf.

I remember back when I first started everyone made excuses for mares with overly long backs saying "it gives them more room to carry a foal" I have always strongly disagreed as it is a dwarf characteristic and a conformation fault. So I have always stayed away from long backed mares.

Another one is the "dishy" head myth. As said before a dishy head is not a bulging forehead. Huge difference.

Nostril placement is another big one that many do not seem to be able to pick out.

Heads longer than their necks; another issue.

So while a horse may not scream dwarf, you can sometimes pick up on some subtle differences. Whether these faults mean a horse is a dwarf carrier (or just poorly conformed) is anyones guess; but if you err on the side of caution and stay away from those horses, you are miles ahead.

 

[Sandy B]

Thank you so much! I am blessed to have my palomino mare, she is truly a once in a lifetime horse! She is as much of a pet as she is a show horse. She is now retired from reining and although she has already produced several foals already via embryo transfer, she is in foal to actually carry her first foal, due next February.

My daughters mini herd is a starter herd. I know there are better horses out there, but she spent her money she saved and a little her great grandma left her to purchase her minis. So her budget was extremely limited. This year is her first foal crop, two of the three mares took, and as you know we lost the one mare & foal. My vet was able to get chains around front legs and head and in spite of both he manipulating and my hubby pulling, the head would not clear the pelvic ring. It would only clear to the bridge of the nose. He tried for 2 hours and unfortunately as you can imagine, even with lots of meds on board, the mare was in bad shock. We discussed a fetotonomy but my vet felt that he still would be unable to get the head out and by that time the mare was in such a sad state. My vet was devastated as he had never not been able to get a foal out both large or mini and his main practice over the years has been mares & foals. I know this does happen and its one of the downs of mini horses. With my daughter only having 3 mini mares, it was and is a big loss. But we will go on and are nervous but excited waiting for Rockette to foal. She is bagging up rather nicely and is now under a camera.

Thank you for your encouragement and experience. I am very sorry about the loss of your mini foal this year, but am so glad that your momma mare is recovering.

I love your site!

Your palomino mare is STUNNING!! What an athlete!

Wowzer!

Your daughter's mini are a very nice little herd. Are they all perfect? No. But who has the perfect horse? I personally don't see anything that says dwarf to me, but sometimes a horse is a carrier with no expression and since there's no test yet, every single one of us could have a carrier and not know it.

As for the horrible experience you had, I'm so sorry for that. But as Mary said, a head too large for an easy foaling doesn't equate to a dwarf. I lost my one and only foal for 2011 the same way. Fortunately for me the mare has survived so far. In my case, the head was presenting with the forehead only, nose and legs all down. A fetotonomy was required, but you know, once that head was no longer attached, it came out very easily. It was just positioned such that it didn't allow for any rearrangement of the foal's position. Once the head was out, legs followed easily. This is a mare that has foaled many, many times before and never one problem. She's never produced a dwarf before and neither has the stallion to my knowledge. This foal was NO dwarf! The head was just positioned wrong and for whatever reason (still for the life of me can't figure out why) there was no room to push her back in and resposition. And the foal was normal sized; probably 17-18" and very fine boned. Who knows why these things happen sometimes.

Again, so sorry for your daughter's loss; but I'd try to let go of the fears about what happened. There is nothing obvious from looking at your herd that leads me to believe you are breeding dwarfs.

 

[kaykay]

Sandy I hope you know I in no way meant my post in a "mean" way. I was very lucky to have some awesome mentors when I started that really helped me a long the way. Wish you lived closer and I could have you and your daughter come out and show you some things.

I pray that the rest of your foalings go well!

 

[Sandy B]

No, not at all. I appreciate any and all mentors! If it was not for people willing to mentor a "horse crazy" youngster when I was young, I would not be where I am today in the Quarter Horse and reining world. in return for all the giving people who have been a part of my life, I mentor youth & 4-H kids and any adults I can, sharing any and all knowledge. PLus I am so passionate about horses that I love to share what I know. I am also not afraid to ask people when I do not know, that is why I came to all of you for advise and to further my and my daughter's education. I too wish I lived closer to you and other breeders. I have learned a bit & attended a mini clinic from Kim Sterchi (?) who lives nearby. I do have a lot of common sense and horse knowledge but am learning as we go with the minis.

And thank you for the prayers. Since we decided to pasture breed the first year (our mini stallions first time breeding), I am unsure of the due date on this mare, but she is obviously close as she is pretty well bagged and exhibiting signs of a term mare, yet I still can not get anything out of her udder. So I continue "foal patrol" looking for further signs and watching lil' momma under the camera.

Sandy I hope you know I in no way meant my post in a "mean" way. I was very lucky to have some awesome mentors when I started that really helped me a long the way. Wish you lived closer and I could have you and your daughter come out and show you some things.

I pray that the rest of your foalings go well!