Panacur 5 Day Purge -- Safe for 8wk Old Foal

[Jill]

6/22 AM Edit To Ask:

For those that use metimucil for foal diarrhea, can you tell me how much you'd give a foal? And is it good to plan and do it 3x a day? Thanks!!!

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Hi, Folks --

I could use some good advice!

We've raised a decent number of foals, but never had to hand raise one until this year. Our hand raised foal, Trooper, has been having diarrhea now for nearly 2wks. Vet has been out 2x (most recently on Thursday afternoon). Trooper checks out fine, is plenty hydrated, VERY active / happy / playful, and bloodwork is normal. He will be 8wks old on Wednesday.

A side note which may be valuable to know is that he has received 2x plasma treatments at 16hrs old and at 6wks old, so he has been given immunity to almost anything a horse could get. The plasma is something we now do because we had sick colts come in from another farm last fall who died soon after arriving and we now give plasma to all our foals to assure they will be healthy (this is per our vets' advice).

For awhile, I thought we'd been feeding him too much Purina Equine Junior (and that his body couldn't tolerate the quantity of it when I stopped including milk pellets) and I'd been recently feeding it "straight". Went back to mixing it with milk pellets, formula... basically just getting food like he's been getting since we've been raising him tough he is to be weaning from the liquid formula right around now per the package instructions. Now I wonder could he have developed lactose intolerance for the formula and milk pellets? I'm going nuts as I have 1,000 theories about what it might be and I cannot figure out what to do.

Medicines have included 1 dose of Panacur (should I do a 5-day course???), BioSponge @ 20cc 3x a day (which initially firmed things up then returned to liquid last Thursday w/o a stopping of the BioSponge -- this resulted in vet coming out for the 2nd time), 20cc of Pepto Bismol 3-4x a day (offset by at least 2hrs from when he gets BioSponge), 5-10cc of Probios a Day, 20cc of Yogurt (which I don't think has probios in the concentration of the actual probios product).

Vet is not concerned based on how well he checks out physically on both dates. He did have hyper-motile gut sounds (which is what goes with diarrhea). Washing his butt 1-2x a day...

I have been advised by my vet and by a friend who is a vet NOT to give Immodium / Loperamide as the risk outweighs the benefit in a foal this age (can lead to intussception in young foals). So this is one medicine I will not try on him though I know it has been used by some with desired results.

Right now, I'm thinking to put him on the senior feed our co-op makes which is easily digested and which I raise our other foals on (though they of course also nurse). Thinking to once again remove the milk pellets which we've again mixed 50/50 to the PEJ with only liquid diarrhea as the outcome (literally...). Wondering if I should start a 5 day course of Panacur? Thinking to keep him closed in his small pen (20x30) that has his stall vs. let him out in the grass area he normally has access to as he may be eating weeds (vet didn't think it was the grass). We will continue to let him out in the yard to run but we watch when he does this and he doesn't eat anything in the yard (he loves to play in the yard).

Tried two kinds of hay as well.

Again, he's pretty much been getting same feeds (just in different ratios as we try to figure the issue) since he was 1wk old.

It could be worse. He's feeling very good and I know how to check the hydration which has remained fine (and with vet agreement). But this is obsessing me. I feel like all I'm doing is checking his butt, checking his stall and trying to figure out what else to try.

Advice would be appreciated, very much!

Thanks a lot,

Jill

PS to put a face with the issue, here's "Trooper" (Whinny For Me's Finely Dun):

 

[kaykay]

These situations can truly drive a person nuts!

Did you test him for Ecoli?? The only symtpom is Diarhea. Our foals got it one year due to flooding so now we give the Ecoli endotoxin right when they are born. We gave liquid SMZ's for foals and it cleared up in a day (but gave the liquid smzs for 6 days)

We had one other foal that to this day still tends to be loose and gassy. No amount of tests could ever figure out why. All we know is she does way better on grass verses hay and does better on a complete feed verses hay. For her grass hay really sets her off while alfalfa does not. When she was a foal they thought for sure it was lactose intolerance but that wasnt it either. When she was on a lot of equine jr it cleared completely

I dont think I would do a 5 day purge on a foal so young. I have been told though by a very repuatable person that liquid panacur works much better then paste if you can find it

 

[Jill]

Would the Ecoli show up in bloodwork? That was all normal. I wasn't here either time and the vet didn't take a stool sample, which perplexes me honestly. I've always been very happy with her... She's one of four vets in the practice I use AND she is on call this weekend. I just put a call in to ask her about the 5-day Panacur and will ask about E. Coli. But I think the Plasma gives them protection against that if I remember the packaging info. It was like you name it, it's in there.

It could be worse. If he were acting off in addition to this diarrhea, then I'd really loose it. As it is, it's just so frustrating. Hoping the vet calls before I have to leave (Father's Day -- going to my parents').

 

[kaykay]

We never tested ours but my vet said anytime you see diarhea in a really young foal its usually E Coli. Mine had no other symptoms with it. So they told me to put on liquid smz's and see if it cleared and man it was like magic! I love those liquid smz's for foals. they are a cherry flavored liquid that is so easy to give them. Much better then pills

Hope you get some answers soon as I know how frustrating it is!

 

[Jill]

It is so frustrating because I get so much conflicting information and while I love this vet and she's been so helpful to us, she's young. I just did get off the phone with her, and she doesn't think it's E. Coli. She said she's rarely seen that in horses and when so, they've had other illness symptoms. URGH. She did say they have a group vet meeting at the practice tomorrow morning and she will bring Trooper up for discussion.

She said to go on and do the 5 day of Panacur because it won't hurt and has some anti-inflammatory properties.

I'm wondering should I just go on and crush up half an SMZ? I have those on hand... And do they get that 2x day? I'm thinking it's 1 pill per 100#?

She also said it wouldn't hurt to give him Lactaid.

 

[Riverdance]

I have found that the Bio Sponge works wonders!! I have had a mare who had cronic diarrhea for a couple of years clear up for the first time last year and has been fine since. I have given it to foals who had diarreha and they have cleared up right away.

Perhaps you are clearing out too much from his gut and you need to put back some of the good bacteria. I would certainly NOT give him more worming medications. They can be very harsh on a young digestive system.

 

[Jill]

Just gave him 1/2 an SMZ... I am not sure though looking if foals his age are likely to have e. coli? The vet didn't think so but I'm figuring an SMZ course can't hurt? The vet keeps thinking it's something he's eating, but he's had nothing "new" at all, just different ratios and everything's a blur as to when the diarrhea started in comparison to the slight changes we made (before after...).

 

[Jill]

I have found that the Bio Sponge works wonders!! I have had a mare who had cronic diarrhea for a couple of years clear up for the first time last year and has been fine since. I have given it to foals who had diarreha and they have cleared up right away.

I know BioSponge is good... but he's been on it now for almost a week. Good results at first and then returned to liquid. 3x a day at 20cc... He's still on it.

So frustrating because all the advice sounds good and half of it contridicts (but sounds good when I hear it). I just don't know what to do.

 

[Riverdance]

I just worry when one starts adding more and more to a foals gut. It needs to be able to settle down and heal.

I have had foals in the past who have had cronic diarrhea. They eventualy have cleared up by themselves. To be honest, I tried all kinds of things with them and found that nothing worked. As long as they are eating and drinking I have left them alone and eventually they have cleared up. You just have to keep an eagle eye on them for dehydration.

Since he has no moma he was unable to eat his dams poop, so he does not have the proper bacteria in his gut.

 

[Barbie]

Jill-

Several years ago I had a colt born who at a very young age had diarrhea. After trying several things and him really going downhill, my vet said try Metamucil. She said to give it to him 3 times the first couple of days and then decrease it. It worked like a miracle drug - by the end of the first day he was getting better and after a couple of more days was completely better and never had the problem again.

Since then, I use Metamucil as a matter of course if anyone has soft stools.

Good luck with your little one.

Barbie

 

[FairytailGlennMinis]

Man, Jill...I am so sorry that you and Trooper are having to go through this. I have ALWAYS had a problem in the summer with my mare Moondancer. Since her birth she has reacted to heat with diareah. She acts fine and it doesn't seem to bother her at all. As soon as the temps start getting into the 90s she gets loose again, sometimes with some "explosives". It does tend to get better as she adjusts to the change...with a few setbacks. I have spent a ton of money on this horse for this and her allergies. She is the only foal I have ever raised and this has been an endless source of frustration. One thing that does work when it gets bad, is carafate. We go on the thoery that whatever allergy (and we have experimented with everything we can think of to remove from her diet) is starting an ulcer and carafate does settle it when it hits that point. I don't know if that is any help at all, but thought I would throw it out there.

 

[Sue_C.]

I have used acidophilus tablets with great success. I gave them according to the same dosage as a human child would get. Just opened the capsule, and poured over the foal's feed.

 

[Becky]

Just a couple of thoughts......

The enzymes in milk help foals to digest fibers and grains. Which they have difficulty doing oin their own. It's been reported that foals don't actually digest fiber well even into their yearling year and beyond as it takes that long for their digestive system to mature. Perhaps he's on a 'solid' diet too soon? I think I would leave him on a milk based feed until he is older. Something like Progressive Nutritions' Foals First Starter and Creep.

We have also just been reading that probiotics are NOT good for young foals. New studies out. Again, their digestive system is not ready for that much/kinds of bacteria.

Just some random thoughts......

 

[wildoak]

No real revalations to add to what's already been said except to sympathize. I know how frustrating this is... I'd probably be considering ulcers as well and trying carafate. I hesitate to keep adding a lot of "stuff" on a foal, but as ulcers are always a real possibility a few days of carafate might at least give you an idea of whether it's something to pursue. Might check out holistichorsekeeping.com too and see if anyone there has any ideas. The vet who hosts is is a holistic vet I've used off and on for many years and is one of the best.

Jan

 

[minie812]

I have to agree with Riverdance about not having MaMa's poo to eat. Being he was an orphan foal. Is there anyway you can put some of her poo in his pen? I know it sounds gross but maybe he will eat some fresh poo of hers...just a thought. I think he may need some good bacteria and I would not do a purge on him. He is sure a pretty little guy and looks healthy otherwise...Good Luck

 

[Ashley]

I wouldn't be taking him off milk yet. I would be going to at least 4 months, just decrease the amounts of feedings. Everything equine that is bottle fed around here is until at least 4 months.

To help with the poop sticking to the body you could put patrolium jelly on his butt and legs.

Also, I know its a long spell but is his mom in heat right now? Even when they are orphans/bottle raised they will still get the runs like when mom is in heat.

I would suggest putting him back on a normal milk schedule, but weakening the strength of the milk.

 

[ontherisefarm]

Jill,

Have you tried to give him organic yogurt ? My vet said to try that when I had a colt who had long lasting runny poo. Just a thought... I hope it clears up for you soon...

 

[Gena]

I'm sorry your having to deal with this Jill, lots of good info posted. I too was wondering if it could be Ecol i.

I have dealt with this one time myself but with a yearling filly. My vet had me take her off the grass and it did clear up. When I put her back on the grass, minimally, it came right back. So in her case it was the grass and I kept her in a dry lot for the summer, I felt bad not letting her graze, I kept her with a buddy though and they did fine. The following spring we tried the grass again and she did fine and never had diarrhea again which was a relief.

I had a friend that had a foal with diarrhea for a couple of months and her vet never did figure out why. She was not an orphan foal either. She did outgrow it.

I thought I have seen posted in the past that macaroon cookies can help with the diarrhea?

I hope it clears up soon, he sure is a handsome little colt!

 

[kaykay]

A friend just emailed and said to remind you to be sure hes not over licking a salt or mineral block as foals love to do that!

 

[Windhaven]

Also one other thing you might want to consider.

Does he have access to a salt block? If so he could be licking it to much. I have had a few foals that would lick on it every time they came in the barn. This would give them the runs and it usually would cause more problems because they didn't feel good. Like licking the dirt which can also cause runs. Once this is all figured out and their system had quieted down they would be fine.