Question about legal ownership

[nootka]

Ok, here's the deal:

If a person is listed on the papers as the "owner of dam at time of foaling" does that make them the owner of the foal?

Long story short,

a mare was leased for "free" to a party, and then that mare was bred, though that breeding occurred after the lease was up. AT the end of the lease, payment was supposed to be made for the mare, but it never was. No papers were filed with the registries as to leasing the mare.

A foal was born, and I am under the impression that it belongs to the person listed as "owner of dam at time of foaling."

This person has not paid for this horse (mare) nor have they paid for the stallion service fees to get the foal. The stallion owner was unaware that they were not the legal owner or lessee of the mare.

The person had to repossess the mare, finally, as it was obvious that the payment was never going to happen (payment was agreed on to occur after approx. one year of lease, which was now 8 months ago).

Just curious how you would see it?

My own feelings were that if the lessee/prospective buyer (this was a lease w/intention to purchase at the end of the lease, or return the horse, neither occurred) wanted the horse for breeding, they would have filed paperwork w/the registries as well as kept their end of the deal on the purchase or return.

Also,

they would have paid for the mare fees to get the paperwork to register the foal.

Oh, yeah, forgot to mention, said foal was sold about two weeks after it was born.

Noone was informed (not the owner of the mare or the stallion).

Liz M.

 

[Secret Hills Ranch]

I believe that the foal belonged to the mare owner personally. Weird situation. Sounds like the people leasing were trying to pull a fast one...

 

[Miniv]

Liz,

The owner of the dam owns the foal. What a mess......

MA

 

[Robin1]

The owner of the mare owns the foal. No doiubt.

Robin

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Not only are the others correct, but the people who sold the foal are actually stealing it, this is THEFT!!!

 

[REO]

I agree that the owner of the mare IS the owner of the foal. If the foal ever gets registered, the mare owner will be listed as the breeder of the foal too. I guess they sold the foal as unregistered? Or do the foal buyers think they are getting a registered foal?

Man, what a sad mess.

 

[Dona]

Ok, here's the deal:
If a person is listed on the papers as the "owner of dam at time of foaling" does that make them the owner of the foal?

Long story short,

a mare was leased for "free" to a party, and then that mare was bred, though that breeding occurred after the lease was up.  AT the end of the lease, payment was supposed to be made for the mare, but it never was.  No papers were filed with the registries as to leasing the mare.

A foal was born, and I am under the impression that it belongs to the person listed as "owner of dam at time of foaling."

This person has not paid for this horse (mare) nor have they paid for the stallion service fees to get the foal.  The stallion owner was unaware that they were not the legal owner or lessee of the mare.

The person had to repossess the mare, finally, as it was obvious that the payment was never going to happen (payment was agreed on to occur after approx. one year of lease, which was now 8 months ago). 

Liz M.

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I agree 100% with the others, but I'm confused Liz. You said the mare was bred "after" the lease was up. And then you mentioned that "payment was agreed on to occur after approx. one year of lease, which was now 8 months ago." 8 months isn't enough time for her to be bred & have a foal.

 

[virginia]

How could they sell a 2 WEEK OLD foal???? I agree, the time frame is weird. If she were bred after the lease was up and the mare had her foal there, that means that over a year had passed since the lease was up, why was she left there so long???

Ginny StP

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

hmm the way i read it was that payment was expected within 12 months after the free lease ended and it is now 20 months after the lease has ended they still have the mare and the foal

Either way yes foal belongs to owner of dam but if they havent been able to get the mare back not sure if they will get the foal

 

[nootka]

Yes, the mare should have been paid for before she was bred to the stallion, or at least payments should have begun OR the mare should have been returned.

The reason this did not happen, I don't know, but I do know the sellers did not have any place for horses and had gotten out of them completely. The buyer/lessee had moved and I don't know how much contact was made until the foal was born. By then, I think the buyer must have realized they needed the seller to sign off on the lease/fill out a transfer to legally have ownership of the foal.

The foal was not sold as unregistered. The buyer of the foal was expecting a registered foal.

All I know is that the foal was advertised soon after birth and it was also subsequently purchased and paid for in full, with delivery to take place after weaning.

It IS a mess, and I just wanted to see how others saw this situation. The person that had the mare during her gestation had her for several months before the foal was born and for two months afterward, so I imagine they feel entitled, but I don't see where they put any type of action in motion to legally do so. There was was a lot they could have done, and there is the issue of the couple thousand dollars they got from sale of the foal that was no applied to the purchase of the mare/straighten out paperwork, again, I see a lack of concern in that department.

The poor foal buyer, who was completely UNAWARE of the mess, is now stuck trying to get repayment for something they will never take delivery of, and don't want even if they could.

I just feel bad for everyone involved. This could have been avoided by keeping things legitimate and honest, and paying a few minor fees here and there, also better communication.

Liz M.

 

[Bess Kelly]

Of course, these are reasons to put into a contract that any foals belong to mare owner if repo is necessary. You have similar situation with a stallion being "sold" and not paid for, all those foals....even outside breedings, etc.

I had this added to my contracts when I read an article about an individual who actually didn't want to own the mare, only receive the foal! Thus, this type item was left out, mare bred, foal kept. Hmmmmm.....contract specifically listed only the mare!

Added: Seems a broodmare's function is to make a foal. Like a farmer leases land and raises corn....if he fails to pay the lease, the owner of the land cannot claim the corn as his. If you sell a mare in foal, on payments, ALWAYS state if repo happens foal returns with mare -- otherwise they got a free foal. Just ask your attorney.....

 

[minimomNC]

Well even if the paperwork is fixed with the owner of the mare, the foal still isn't registerable until the stud fee is paid on the stallion if one is due. The stallion owner would have to sign a breeders certificate first. The best recourse for the person that bought the foal is to take the person they bought from to court to collect the money they paid and then buy the foal from the mare owner and I think if that is to work that both the mare owner and the person buying the foal should split the stud fee if one is due. The stallion owner shouldn't lose their money because of someone else.

Good luck, sure hope it works out. Its people like this that make it difficult for others. Especially people new to miniatures. Nothing like buying a double registered foal only to find out that the paperwork is far from complete or up to date.