Question on sales

[lyn_j]

If I buy a horse that is perm reg as an A horse.It is registered AMHA and AMHR It has an AMHR perm card and also registration papers as a A horse. Im in a rush to buy it so I send the money and make transport arrangements. After wards I have the horse measured and it is 3/4" over.In my rush, there is no contract, no guarantees. I decide I dont want this horse after all. What recourse do I have to get my money back and send the horse back?

Lyn

 

[Matt73]

If I buy a horse that is perm reg as an A horse.It is registered AMHA and AMHR It has an AMHR perm card and also registration papers as a A horse. Im in a rush to buy it so I send the money and make transport arrangements. After wards I have the horse measured and it is 3/4" over.In my rush, there is no contract, no guarantees. I decide I dont want this horse after all. What recourse do I have to get my money back and send the horse back?Lyn

D'oh! That's too bad Lyn. My first instinct is to say "Buyer Beware". You can ask the seller if they'd take him/her back. But it really looks like there's not much else you could do. That said, I am curious to see if there actually is something to be done so I'll be watching for responses.

 

[RockRiverTiff]

Double d'oh. Do you by any chance have some correspondence in which the seller states the horse's height? I also wonder if this would be punishable by either of the registries? After all, if the horse officially measures 3/4" over then the seller gave them fraudulent information too.

 

[Carolyn R]

Has the horse been transported yet, hypothetically? Have you outright asked the buyer the actual current size? If the horse has yet to be transported and the buyer misrepresented the horse, I would expect the deposit back on the horse, but forget about being reimbursed for the transport deposit. If the horse has already been delivered and it was a hasty sale, and you never asked the buyer "go out and get a measurement today and tell me what the horses height is today" then chalk it up to a learning experience and move on.

JMO

Carolyn

 

[Magic]

You say that the horse has an AMHR permanent measuring card? That means that at least one steward measured the horse at the (presumably advertised) height. There's no telling, though, what the steward(s) allowed the horse to be set up like, etc.

I DO know of a few horses that legitimately can show in either over or under classes; depending on how short their feet are trimmed-- not "lame" short, but short--- and how chunky they are, or hyped up when measuring, etc. I do hope this is the case with the horse you are talking about, though 3/4" sounds like a LOT.

When you (or whoever it was) were buying the horse, did the sellers ever mention the horse's height? Or did they just say it had permanent A papers, etc? I don't know, you *might* have the basis for a lawsuit, and/or to involve the registries in an effort to get the buyer to take the horse back. I hope that you (or whoever bought the horse) is able to resolve it!

And let that be a lesson to the rest of us--- try not to rush into the purchase of a horse. OH! Get a contract and make sure that it includes everything that is important to you. I find this so sad...

 

[Jill]

Lyn, is this something that happened to you? You've bought horses for so long, I can't imagine you making this mistake.

Anything that's of make it or brake it importance to the buyer should be guaranteed in writing, otherwise it is buyer beware. Things like this can of course damage a seller's reputation, but if it wasn't guaranteed, then...

Personally, the last thing I want to do is misrepresent one of my sale horses. It's very important to me that new owners are happy with the horse, but I know not all sellers feel that same level of concern.

 

[lyn_j]

Clarification of situation. I am the seller, not the buyer but wanted opinions. I sold the horse based on what I showed him as last year at nationals. He measured 33.25 there. When I took him perm I added a half an inch as an insurance policy. He is fat , has been in a lot for a year, not conditioned, could have his feet made shorter. I told the buyer that he was in field condition not show condition and , that he had not had his feet done the whole time I was in Europe. We took him down some but not alot.

I transported him to Nationals where he was measured by a steward, I was not present so I didnt set him up I and several others measured him at 34 and once less in the barn areas So I wasnt worried. The trainers brought him back to the barn said he was over, to take him home and refund their client. I said I would do that as soon as I could re sell him for her or, have the money personally avilable. We didnt have room for him to come home so I send him home with another farm and paid them to transport.

I advertised and sold him as I believed him to be based on my measurements last year and again this. A horse can measure significantly different every show.

Anyway. I wanted thoughts on weather I was doing the right thing, and am I responsible for all the transport. There was no deposit, he was paid in full the day before I left for nationals. I am an honest person and want to do the right thing but for how much am I responsible?

We had no contract, my bad. this is the first and last time I sell a horse without a VERY specific contract! It was crazy here and , 5 people were asking about him and these people wanted to make sure they had him.I did not intentionally miss represent him, in fact I dont believe that he was mis represented but rather miss measured.

 

[ontherisefarm]

For what it's worth legally since there wasn't a contract you didnt have to take the horse back but you did which is an honorable thing to do. But unfortunately since you did take him back you are responsible for getting him back home unless you deduct those costs from his purchase price and refund them the difference. It is all on what you feel to be fair and knowing in your heart that you didnt set out to fool anyone. I truely feel for you. Making those kinds of decisions stink. cause its darn if you do and darn if you dont... When there are two sides to every story sometimes there never is any right thing just follow your heart and what you can live with and know you did all you could. Good Luck...

 

[Miniv]

Oh Lyn.........You are in that horrible "gray area" in regard to buying and selling a horse because there was NO CONTRACT.

Legally, the money was exchanged for a horse with permanent registration papers, as promised and I assume there was a sales receipt and transfer forms signed. So legally, the buyer is now the owner of the horse. And legally, that would be it and if the new owner wanted to, they could sell the horse anywhere and for any amount -- tomorrow!

HOWEVER, we all know that horses who are "close" to that magic 34 number can flip-flop on either side depending on who is measuring, the weather, hoof length, how the horse is set up, or even if the sky is blue and not gray!!!!

The above measurement issue WITHOUT a contract opens up a can of worms to an HONEST SELLER. Yes, we hear more about Buyers getting burned, but Sellers can too.......if they are honest and want to be respected.

The other issue not mentioned (yet) is......As the seller, do you want this sort of person to have ownership to YOUR horse?

It sounds as though, for whatever reason, the Buyer is trying to get out of the deal........and the measurement issue is a handy one. "Legally", you don't have to take the horse back, from what you described. BUT.......the concern over how will your horse be treated or where will it end up may also be a consideration.

Just a thought to make it more difficult for you............Sorry.......

PS: I just noticed you were also asking about the transport? That's also a sticky wicket. The FAIR thing would be for you two to split the cost. But it doesn't sound as though you are dealing with a fair buyer either.........

 

[lyn_j]

I do not want to paint the buyer as an unfair buyer. I will not be an unfair seller, I will return the money as soon as I have it. I used it to go to nationals myself. I sent the horse back to VA with friends so the transfers never happened. I had the paperwork there for them to take home with him along with new halters lead etc. They decided not to take him on the monday after nationals started and , on the way home, I got a call that a new horse had been found , and they needed the money back in 60 days to purchase the new horse.I had 5 people interested in him before nationals, some not even wanting to show but wanting him deliverered out there as well. Now that he is home they are no longer interested. I have him advertised.

I dont want my reputation in the mini world tarnished. I worked for too many years to get where I am. It is just uncomfortable to get an e mail threatening litigation when 'I am willing and trying to get it taken care of.

Lyn

 

[Leeana]

IF I WAS THE SELLER:

I would offer to take the horse back, as long as shipping was paid by the "purchaser" to get them back to my barn and refund all money to the buyer.

IF I WAS THE BUYER:

I would have to decide if the 3/4" is really enough for me to make a big deal out of it, if it was me ...i wouldnt make a big deal out of it and just let it go. I am a sellers dream. But, if i really felt i was lied to about the horse...i would ensure the seller knew i was unhappy and probably take them up on the offer to take the horse back (if offered).

Needless to say, a horse will never leave my farm or come onto my farm without a contract.

 

[yankee_minis]

Tough one. All I can say is that horses measure differently at different times.

If I was going to show this horse, then yes, measurement would be vitally important and I would have asked for a height guarantee.

Before people knew who you were they said buyer beware. And I think that was honest and true.

I'm sorry you're going through this.

I doubt litigation would do much except waste everyone's time, money and energy.

 

[Boinky]

Honestly I think that it should be at least partially if not fully the responsibility of the buyer to pay for return shipping. if you buy a product from any company and you have to send it back..none of them pay for the return shipping. not only were THEY in a bind but so weren't you in this deal. i think it's nice that you are trying to make it right and they need to work with you as well to make it right if your willing to.

 

[lyn_j]

In all fairness, there was great disapointment for both of us. I am trying my best to make a bad situation better for us all. It just cant be instantaneous. I feel badly for the people that are missing out on a fabulous horse with personality and talent to burn, the perfect amateur and youth horse. I wish I had it all right now to take care of it in the time I was given. I have consulted with my own attourney after being told they were thinking of litigation and she has given me some good advice.. I will leave it at that. My name and reputation are worth more to me than what this horse cost. I thank you all for your opinions and suggestons.

 

[Boinky]

ohh also wanted to add. If i had been in your situation i would have taken the horse up myself after being told that to be remeasured after hearing that and get a card on the horse so incase it became a big bru ha ha again. it seems odd that your horse would measure under by several people in the barns AT nationals but not when measured in. Granted i know heights can change depending on the stance ect i'm guessing you didn't set him up all streached out and measured him to be certain on your end.... but to have the horse remeasured by yourse would have at least cover your butt. my guess is it sounds like the buyer was trying to back out but hard telling i guess. To jump on litigation so fast when you've already said you will solve the problem is also a bit hard to swallow. I've dealt with situations like this before and it seems like it only happens with a certain TYPE of buyer.

 

[ruffian]

Lynn - you are trying hard to honest and that's very commendable.

When this happened I would have taken the trainer and the horse up and had it measured again. If over 34" at the remeasure I would have done what you are doing - pay for the transport myself.

To me it sounds more like they found a horse they liked better.

 

[Jill]

I guess if nothing else, reading this I am not going to roll my eyes at myself anymore for obsessively measuring and remeasuring and measuring again horses I've listed for sale. I've always been so worried about a seller getting a horse from me and finding it taller than they want by their measuring. I always measure from the top of the withers (and disclose this) so as to be as "generous" as possible and not have someone get a horse from me with a set of papers they can't rightfully use.

Another idea is to do a short video of measuring the horse. Most digital cameras will do this. Until recently, I didn't know how to do videos with my camera but now that I do, that will be a part of my pre-sale ritual where we get photos from every angle, pictures of the bite, etc. Sometimes just one misunderstanding with a seller can do damage to a reputation and a video of the measuring will at least be a visual record of what was recorded and how it was so.

Hope it all works out. If it's the horse I think it is, he is mighty handsome.

 

[Versatility Farm & Training]

Just wondering how the situation turned out, if it has turned out yet?

I also thought I would toss in my 2 cents. I will not repeat what others have said on here, no point in saying the same things over and over, but would like to say something on the buyers point of view.

It sounds like this person trusted their trainers opinion/advise and when the trainer got it measured over they took that and were upset by it, being that they wanted an A horse. Easy enough, and understandable, with no contract you don't have to do anything, but were a nice person and did. The problem (from a buyers point of view) was you not only had their money, but also posession of the horse. That gives them no garuntee of anything, horse or money, which is why they were so quick to jump to litigation. If I were a buyer, I would not have allowed the horse to go home with you without getting my money back. In my opinion (and in my sales contracts) if the horse is returned for any reason, the buyer is responcible for shipping costs/arrangements. Since the situation has already happened, I would recommend making payments to them to get things settled. Some money is better than no money, and may keep them satisfied until you can get all of the money to pay them back.

 

[Katiean]

If I were the buyer I would not have sent the horse back as I had not seen the horse in person and that would be my bad. We have a mare that can measure just under 34" and she can measure 34 1/2". If I were to sell her I would sell her as a 34" mare. Just because her feet are a bit off I would not refund for her being over size. IMO if you are looking at a horse that is 34" you can expect it to go over at times. If you don't want a horse to be boarderline, don't buy a horse that is on the line. I think it is the buyers problem. Also, who is paying for the feed while the horse is still the buyers horse even though you have it?

 

[Marty]

Lyn the measuring thing is just nuts and I hate it.

Last year he measures in at Nationals at 33.25.

You add a half an inch to cover your butt going permanent.

This year he "grows" and hits a whopping 34" and when the stewarts measure him he even goes over that. For an adult horse, he sure knows how to keep growing.

Even considering that he is fat and grew some heels, everyone that has measured this horse so far is obviously measuring him differently.

What does this say to everyone about this measuring system?

Something has got to give.

I think it is just an honest mistake and understandably so.