Questions about treats for trick training?

[thathorsecrazychick]

I want my mini to learn how to bow and I have been trying to teach her for over two months with no treats. Just with rubbing, releasing her in field, and taking the pressure off. But She’ll do fine then I make mistake and she doesn’t want to do it any more, then we get better then we don’t do it for a couple days and she acts like she doesn’t know how. Then I push her into it then she doesn’t want to do it at all!
I don’t like to use treats because I wanted to build a relationship based off of respect and trust and not food. But at this point I wanted to know the benefits of treat training ( I would only use treats for tricks though)

 

[Crimson Rose]

I train with treats as a reward. Have you ever researched into the science behind positive reinforcement training also known as clicker training? This science is the whole reason behind why I train with treats. I can refer you to tons of resources if you would like.

Reading my training blog here will also help by giving you an idea of how I use them. I don't use them for just tricks, but all of my training. My Facebook page has a bunch of resources as well

 

[thathorsecrazychick]

No… but now I will. I really just would want to use them trick training. Learning obstacles, and groundwork exercises are easy for her to get without treats.
Plus I don’t want to carry treats all the time.

 

[Crimson Rose]

I completely understand. I don't always carry treats either, only when training new behaviors or reviewing newer behaviors. Let me know if you have any questions

Oh and as a side note due to reading your training blog, clicker training is perfect for training at liberty! Clicker training makes liberty type training a breeze, and so much more fun!

 

[thathorsecrazychick]

Liberty to me now is about “talking” to a horse while they are free. And they choose to be with you. Because they respect and trust you. I just want to talk to her and both of us trust each other even more!

 

[Crimson Rose]

I completely agree, except my liberty training is based on positive associations, clear cues, trust, and complete choice. My method doesn't include any round penning or whips/crops/ect. I have a eight month old filly that follows me at a walk or trot over obstacles, backs, stands, turns, all with just body language and scratches as a reward She learned this in a few weeks time.

 

[rgsiiiya]

Definitely research positive rewards training, especially combined with clicker training! I use both with great success.

Once they learn a behavior, you can replace the treat reward with other rewards like praise, scratches, etc.
You can also change the cue for any behavior after they learn it also.

 

[Standards Equine]

@thathorsecrazychick (love your moniker)
What is your current training technique for causing the bow behavior? Are you using a hobble and rope, or just freely your hands and body?

My personal favorite for teaching bow is a single hobble with a rope around the belly, through the hobble to my hand "running V" style, and then a rein set up on the halter (using the leadrope.) Then put the two together to cause a backup command with the rein, and keeping the leg up with the hobble. I'm able to release and reward at any point and I'm able to redirect if they're getting up before I'm ready. It's not a technique for everyone, but I really like it. Naturally there's OODLES of ground work I do before I'll start the bow.

As far as treats, think of them as a currency for horses. I honestly feed my horses like a pez dispenser, ask the trainer we board with, but they also do not mug me or disrespect my space for treats. I'm big on owning my space and setting boundaries. However, I understand that a horse is likely to be more engaging if they have a reward, a currency, beyond just a release of pressure.

All that being said, yes clicker training can be great - IF your animal takes to it, and not all do! My stallion is the only one I have who really took to it. The rest of them are cued off my body language and voice, my energy. A clicker is not a remote control.

 

[thathorsecrazychick]

I just pick up her foot and ask her to back up. As soon as she gives release and rub. But by now she should be able to bow and she acts she can’t

 

[Crimson Rose]

She might not be able to due to a physical reason or pain. How does she react?

 

[BSharpRanch]

Each animal is an individual. Some will work for food, some for pets, some because they want to. The secret is to find what works for each individual, no matter what you are teaching.

I had a steer that learned to do tricks just because it meant spending time with me. I had a cow that if there wasn't some kind of food involved, take a hike I tried to clicker train her, but just succeeded to teach her to be distracted, want ting for the click. I do tell them "good" when they've done the correct behaviour, which is essentially the same as using the clicker, without needing a third hand

What "treats" do I use? It all depends on the horse. I like carrots, horse pellets and even horse treats. I cut the horse treats up small for the minis, same with the carrots. The pellets I will break up if they are long. I use a dog treat pouch to carry them in, mostly so my clothes don't smell like treats.

 

[thathorsecrazychick]

She might not be able to due to a physical reason or pain. How does she react?

Well she’ll lean back like she’s supposed to. Then if I ask her to get her knee to the ground sometimes she’ll just back up and hop on one foot..

 

[thathorsecrazychick]

. I use a dog treat pouch to carry them in, mostly so my clothes don't smell like treats.

Smart

 

[Crimson Rose]

Well she’ll lean back like she’s supposed to. Then if I ask her to get her knee to the ground sometimes she’ll just back up and hop on one foot..

Sounds to me like she honestly doesn't know what you are asking. Maybe try a new way of teaching the lay down?

 

[thathorsecrazychick]

im teaching her to bow, and she has bowed a couple times. But we couldn't keep it consistent and now she acts like she dosn't know how...

 

[R2RStables]

I want my mini to learn how to bow and I have been trying to teach her for over two months with no treats. Just with rubbing, releasing her in field, and taking the pressure off. But She’ll do fine then I make mistake and she doesn’t want to do it any more, then we get better then we don’t do it for a couple days and she acts like she doesn’t know how. Then I push her into it then she doesn’t want to do it at all!
I don’t like to use treats because I wanted to build a relationship based off of respect and trust and not food. But at this point I wanted to know the benefits of treat training ( I would only use treats for tricks though)

I use Positive Reinforcement (treats) and clicker training with all my ponies (Welsh Ponies & Miniature).
It is a science based method, and has been proven to reduce stress and create an equine who *wants* to engage with you.

Remember though, you have to shape the behaviour you want to see.
People will tell you horses get muggy for treats, without realizing they’re muggy usually because you’ve rewarded for that behaviour.

 

[thathorsecrazychick]

I use Positive Reinforcement (treats) and clicker training with all my ponies (Welsh Ponies & Miniature).
It is a science based method, and has been proven to reduce stress and create an equine who *wants* to engage with you.

Remember though, you have to shape the behaviour you want to see.
People will tell you horses get muggy for treats, without realizing they’re muggy usually because you’ve rewarded for that behaviour.

I'll definitely have to teach her, treat manners that's for sure. She gets over excited just with grain

 

[Standards Equine]

im teaching her to bow, and she has bowed a couple times. But we couldn't keep it consistent and now she acts like she dosn't know how...

I've run into this so many times. They learn that they don't HAVE to go down to the ground and stay there. That's why I really like the rein and hobble/rope set up, because I can catch them when they start to stand up again and redirect them back down. It isn't that she doesn't understand, it's that it's uncomfortable and vulnerable and she's not in charge. I've separated my shoulders several times correcting other people's horses who have learned that they don't have to stay.

If you are going to treat, I would ONLY treat while she's down in the correct position, not when she stands.

And, if you're going to teach lay down, teach it very soon. Otherwise, I've found they really fight because the "right" answer has been to bow.

Best wishes!!!!

 

[Crimson Rose]

Some excellent reading that I would recommend is the blog on Horse Tricks 101's website. They have great articles on the subject.