Quetions About our Deworming Rotation

[Mona]

Below is a deworming rotation schedule as posted on Jeffer's Equine website. I have some questions about it. I normally don't rotate other than going from an Ivermection product to the Equimax that also has ivermectin. My vet told me many years ago, when I first got into horses, that I didn't need to rotate. I asked him about rotating saying I had read that the worms build up a resistance if only one type used, and he said they would build up a resisitence to two or three types too if used all the time, so I took him at his word, and have plodded along all these years worming several times a year with the 2 products I mentioned above. I like the Equimax in the Fall. Anyway, I have been finding that I don;t feel it is doing it's job, so want to get some better form of coverage going!

Some of my questions:

1- I know Ivermection has a HUGE safety margin, thus, one of the reasons I always stuck with that one in particular. Had some "mishaps" over the years where I accidentally gave a full syringe to a mini, and one time even a mini foal!

I know enough NOT to use Quest...ever, but, am wondering what kind of safety margins the other products have? I always have the tendency to give too much, as I feel not enough will do, so better to give too much than not enough. BUT, if an accidental full tube was administered, will this kill them??

2- In the Ivermectin Group, several are listed, but Bimectin is not in there. It is Ivermectin based, so wouldn't it work on those rotations as well?

3- Also, this SafeGuard Power Dose...says to give 2 25g syringes for 5 days in a row. I know that would be different for a mini, but do you all do this, giving them all this for 5 days straight? I would only be useing the paste, not the pellets or anything. And is this just regular SafeGuard paste, only given at higher doses and for 5 days, or is there actually a product calle PowerDose? I looked on Jeffer's but didn't see it.

4- The chart shows 6 rotations, but of course only 4 seasons, so it it basically just every 2 months you worm with a product from that group?

5- And finally, is just doing the rotation with the same product all the time where it is required...will that work OK, or do you have to rotate brands? My way of thinking is you don't need to rotate the brands as it is the active ingedient and not the brand that they build the resistence to so rotating the product type and not the brand, would work just fine??

Thank you!

 

[Kim~Crayonboxminiatures]

This is my understanding and I'm not a vet, but I have done a lot of research/reading.

1. Fenbendazole (Safe Guard or Panacur) and Pyrantel Pamoate are safe for majot overdosing as well, in fact I think they have a higher "safety" level than ivermectin. In fact foals under 6 months of age can have a reaction to ivermectin, but can be safely treated with fenbendazole or pyrantel pamoate. Over doses of the other dewormers (other than Quest) will not kill a Mini.

2. Brand names are not what is important, it's the chemical so if it says ivermectin it is ivermectin (Bimectin is ivermectin). It works in rotation.

3. The Safe-Guard or Panacur power dose kills encycsyted strogyles, the only other dewormer effective is Quest (for killing encysted strongyles). You give a double dose of fenbendazole for 5 days, it doesn't have to be the "power pack" they sell, although that is usually the most cost effective way to purchase enough for that many doses. It can be "regular" Safe Guard just double the dose (by weight) and give it 5 days in a row. It can be in the paste or pelleted form.

4. deworming every 8 weeks is what is generally recommended and rotate according to the seasons as is listed in the chart.

5. You need to rotate the chemical (active ingredient), not the brand name. You can't use Strongid one time and then Exodus the next time because it's the same chemical (active ingredient: pyrantel pamoate), you wouldn't actually be rotating in that example.

I've been rotating dewormers since I had my first horse many years ago. I don't know why they say you can use only ivermectin because if you do your research there are some worms that ivermectin doesn't touch. It has always made more sense to me to rotate, and it's also what my vet practice recommends.

 

[Candice]

I do rotate products. I don't believe that Ivermectin and pyrantal pamoate (sp?) alone are enough to get rid of everything. Here in South Central Fl, our hot humid weather and sandy soil = worm heaven.

 

[Mona]

Thank you both.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Fenbendazole is so safe you would have to drown the horse in it to harm it...that is why it is not really effective in one dose except as a foal/dog/puppy etc wormer.

There is no need at all to rotate chemicals, worming ever eight weeks with Ivermectin will not form a resistance, and shoving something else in will possibly mean you have not effectively killed certain worms.

When I do the Fenbendazole five day I always do it as well as the Ivermectin, NOT instead of.

Praziquantel PLUS Ivermectin, same way.

I do not trust Pyrantel Pamoate- that chemical does have a known resistance, Ivermectin does not.

Same with every day wormers- if not given at exactly the right dose it will cause resistance.(I have proof of this, but blowed if I can find it at the mo...I will try though)

If you can get a ml syringe I can tell you the exact dosage by weight for Minis for Fenbendazole liquid.

I am STILL not sure why you are told to do a double dose of Fenbendazole when I am assure by the manufacturers that it is not necessary in Europe...are American worms that more hard headed???

It might be something to ask the American distributors, as I do sometimes think it may be a marketing ploy..............

 

[krissy3]

pancure also has a large overdose margin. I know this from expierence

My locking "thing" was not locked, and she got the whole wormer...I panicked for sure , called the vet , and he said it wasnt a problem, but I still kept a watchful eye on her for the next few days, and got some mash in her tummy. I also called the manufacturer. I have seen the effects of Quest on a sad little pony whos idiot mother gave him far too much . His rear end was very inflamed and looked painful.

 

[Mona]

Fenbendazole is so safe you would have to drown the horse in it to harm it...that is why it is not really effective in one dose except as a foal/dog/puppy etc wormer.There is no need at all to rotate chemicals, worming ever eight weeks with Ivermectin will not form a resistance, and shoving something else in will possibly mean you have not effectively killed certain worms.

When I do the Fenbendazole five day I always do it as well as the Ivermectin, NOT instead of.

Praziquantel PLUS Ivermectin, same way.

I do not trust Pyrantel Pamoate- that chemical does have a known resistance, Ivermectin does not.

Same with every day wormers- if not given at exactly the right dose it will cause resistance.(I have proof of this, but blowed if I can find it at the mo...I will try though)

If you can get a ml syringe I can tell you the exact dosage by weight for Minis for Fenbendazole liquid.

I am STILL not sure why you are told to do a double dose of Fenbendazole when I am assure by the manufacturers that it is not necessary in Europe...are American worms that more hard headed???

It might be something to ask the American distributors, as I do sometimes think it may be a marketing ploy..............

OK Jane, sorry I am not quite understanding so asking you just to be sure. Are you saying they don;t build up a resistance to Ivermectin? So if I dewormed with that every 8 weeks there should be no worms? Or are you saying I need to xcontinue to deworm every 8 weeks with the ivermectin PLUS add the Strongid, Safeguard, and Equimax at intervals?

Also, on deworming mares before they foal. I guess you keep them on the same rotation as all other horses(?), but then you deworm them again 30 days or so before their due date? With which product do you at that time deworm them? Then what about after they foal? Do they need something immediately after foaling? Or do they just stay in their normal rotation?

And finally...FOALS...do they get any deworming while nursing? If so, what and when, and after they are weaned??? I have always given the Ivermectin to foals of all ages!

 

[Lewella]

Research as early as 2004 shows large roundworms to have developed ivermectin resistance - http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=5117 (you have to sign in to The Horse to read this one)

Earlier this year another article in The Horse discussed how small strongyles are developing resistance to ivermectin and that there is evidence that they are also developing resistance to moxidectin. http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?I...ID=1&src=RA

Cited in The Horse - The study, "Evaluation of parasiticidal activity of fenbendazole, ivermectin, oxibendazole, and pyrantel pamoate in horse foals with emphasis on ascarids (Parascaris equorum) in field studies on five farms in Central Kentucky in 2007," was published in the July 2008 edition of Parasitology Research.

Mona - The chart you posted is the one SafeGuard distributes and several of us here in Central MN have found it to be very effective. One thing I like about it is that it doesn't use ivermectin during the summer months when the ponies and horses are on pasture. Ivermectin can decimate the native beetle population which isn't good for pastures!

 

[Kim~Crayonboxminiatures]

Also, on deworming mares before they foal. I guess you keep them on the same rotation as all other horses(?), but then you deworm them again 30 days or so before their due date? With which product do you at that time deworm them? Then what about after they foal? Do they need something immediately after foaling? Or do they just stay in their normal rotation?

I have read not to deworm a mare 30 days prior to foaling, so I keep them out of that rotation if they are within 30 days of foaling. As recommended I deworm the mare with ivermectin within 24 hours after foaling. This keeps the foal from getting a significant amount of worms from the mare, and also helps to prevent foal scours.

And finally...FOALS...do they get any deworming while nursing? If so, what and when, and after they are weaned???

This is my vet's recommended foal deworming schedule and what I follow and have had lots of success with.

Deworm monthly until a year old:

Month 1: Fenbendazole or Pyrantel (the first two months I use Fenbendazole and then alternate)

Month 2: Fenbendazole or pyrantel

Month 3: Fenbendazole or pyrantel

Month 4: Fenbendazole or pyrantel

Month 5: Pyrantel Pamoate

Month 6: ivermectin

Month 7: pyrantel

Month 8: ivermectin

Month 9: pyrantel

Month 10: ivermectin

Month 11: pyrantel

Month 12: ivermectin

 

[muffntuf]

Rotation is necessary because of the seasons of the different worms to your region. Right now, well its almost over is bot fly season, so shortly I will need to worm for bot flies.

So a rotation according to your region and seasons is best. Your vet or good equine nutritionist could help you in your area.

I would stay away from Moxydentyl (sp?) and there are several posts that talk about how dangerous it could be for miniatures and small ponies.

As for deworming a mare its a vet recommendation I would go with. But one tried and true is deworming with ivermectin within 12 hours of foaling.

Good Luck - its muddy waters out there.

Oh and Bimectrin - I love it! It's apple flavored and the horses and ponies love it compared to Zimectrin, and its a whole lot cheaper, does the same job.

They now have a pyrantol pomoate that is apple flavored - much better than the none flavoring.

 

[Mona]

Thanks again everyone. I got my "rotation" all figured out and all my paste ordered today...enough to get me through a full year!

OUCH!

Thanks also Lewella for letting me know about that chart being good for our area. I am glad it works, because when I ordered my dewormers, I based it all on that chart's rotation recommendations!

 

[tinypony]

I have a wonderful vet, very helpful, and he is doing a new system. He said that with the toxicity of constantly drugging our animals, in addition to the resistance the worms show, that I should no longer worm on a schedule. Instead he has me bring in fresh fecal samples every 2 months. One of my horses has been worm-free for 3 yrs and I haven't had to use wormer that whole time. It is a cheap, easy test and prevents the need to be shoving medications down my horses' throats all the time. So if the "poo" tests positive, I worm, if not, no wormer....easy.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Testing faecal samples is always a good idea, BUT it does not always let you know about Tapeworms and will not show encysted small strongyles.

For this reason I always recommend that people doing the test only method do continue to use a tapewormer once a year at least, and also use the Fenbendazole five day, again, at least once a year.

Against the amount of chemicals currently passing through the average horse, this is very slight.