Rookie newbie asking cart with brake question

[shorthorsemom]

I recently purchases a meadowbrook mini cart. The former owner had a brake installed on this cart when it was made. My trainer would like the brake removed. I am about to have the brake cut off, but would be interested in some additional opinion from the forum driving experts as to the brake removal and the wisdom of changing my cart as soon as possible before I actually do it. This is a two wheeled cart. It has a brake created for both wheels and the brake part you stomp on (newbie description) is in the center of the floor. My trainer says these brakes on a two wheeled cart can get you in trouble. She is afraid I might tangle in the foot pedal exiting or that my reins might get tangled or that the weeds and grass etc will tangle to the brake and make them come in contact with the wheels.

Over a year ago this miniature horse had a run away situation resulting in an overturned cart which I am sure why the brake was installed in the first place. Kind of a no brainer I think that we are going to train from the ground up and work on stands following halts, and have the brake "surgically" removed, but I was interested in others that might have two wheeled carts with brakes with no problem. Also, I might add that the mini drives nicely, he just seems to need additional work on standing still after the halt. He halts quickly, just fidgets and it is a pain getting him to stand so you can exit the cart. He doesn't seem to shy at anything. The wreck was caused by a dog attack. He goes in an open bridle very nicely now and is fine with dogs since he can see them...

Anybody else have a two wheeled cart with a brake?

 

[R Whiteman]

There are some valid reasons to have brakes on a vehicle. They can be very useful if the driver knows how to use them correctly. They are not in my opinion there to stop the horse. They are there to assist the horse when needed. Using brakes on most two wheel cart causes downward pressure on the shafts that could place a great deal of force on the horses back. I will leave the details to those folks that have more experience than I do in this area.

As to the removal. It would depend on how much damage the removal would cause. I think I would be tempted to just disconnect the linkage to the pedal and remove the linkage and the pedal. It won't hurt anything to leave the parts on the wheel. The cart then could retain possibly more resale value if you should decide to sell it.

The easiest way is to just keep you foot off the pedal and leave it alone. This brake is a personal thing on you trainers part and shouldn't really be an issue in my opinion. Yes, what she said is possible but so are countless other things. I would asked your trainer to teach you to use the brake correctly instead of removing it from the vehicle.

Just my two cents

Ron

P.S. Well said Bob.

 

[Carriage]

Hi Shorthorse,

I am not an expert driver (but I play one on t.v.) No, not really.... However I do come from a carriage background. That being said, and with the set of givens you've listed (I did not see a horse size mentioned), I would say to not give up a tool of control, even if you never "need" it. Just because the brake is there doesn't mean you have to use it. However,.....

Many think of the mechanical brake as an all or nothing proposition. It's not. Most often, to near exclusivity, the mechanical brake serves as a helping apparatus to the horse for us. Feathering a brake to pull inertial weight off the horse is how we intend for the brake to be used. The smaller the horse and heavier the rig the more help the mechanical brake is to the horse. Slamming or hard application of the brakes is a misuse of this apparatus.

The brake is NOT a substitute or crutch for comprehensive training. Wanted to have this sentence isolated so that it is plainly seen. Some folk get right uppity when you tell them, the problem is a training issue and not a mechanical one...

Unless the rig is built out of balance or otherwise improperly constructed, and or the horse is improper for the rig selected, the PROPER application of mechanical braking should never "get you into trouble". I have over quite a few years now seen with my own eyes, the the proper application of mechanical brakes having the exact opposite effect on runaways. The mechanical brakes serves as a very effective means to get your voice and hands back into the horses head vs. flight. Miss Portia had this happen in a rig right in front of me at an AMHA show many years ago. When the horse spooked and was ready for flight, I said "hit the brakes" and she did PROPERLY. She instantly regained the horses mind and turned, gave me a huge smile and stated " I like that!"

Now all the reasons the trainer gave you for dxing the brakes while "potentially" valid, are again a training issue and not necessarily an issue with equipment. The training is for you. In your marriage to the rig (yes I do mean that you know your rig in a near Biblical sense just like your horse), You will train your self to NOT let those "potential's" happen. If your reins can get tangled in a brake peddle on the floor of your cart what does this mean? I'll give you a hint, it doesn't mean you get rid of the brake peddle.......

You getting tangled in the brake peddle, unless its some huge freakish appendage ( in which case we modify the brake peddle so that it is not) is the same answer. Don't. Train yourself NOT to get tangled. It is always constant in it's location and build. Its not like it moves around or hides just to jump out and trip you when you're not looking.

While I suppose that "grass and weeds" could tangle, I've just never seen it happen in over 20 years of using mechanical brakes on trail rigs with drivers that seem to have no fear of anything, including playing Mr./Miss invisible in the tall grass. Again if the brake system has been properly designed, I can't consider this a valid argument against brakes.

More often, in my experience, the issue with mechanical brakes has always been about the saddle weight mechanical brakes CAN and do to a limited extent, impart to the animal. I really do emphasize CAN, if they are improperly applied. Remember, with the common driving VSE we are still talking a draft animal with the resulting structure, just in miniature. The temporary saddle weight imparted to the horse when using the brakes PROPERLY is not the issue some make it out to be. Proper application of the tool IS the key. Oddly the smaller the horse, the more help the brake system can be to the horse in various terrain situations. Again proper application is even more important for the smaller mini.

You need to trust me when I say that the application of brakes to a mini is a piece of cake when compared to much smaller animals which I have also done for years. With the smaller animal proper application of mechanical brakes is literally a craft in itself, can be done and be done to the animals benefit. I would politely disagree with your trainer.

Please consider carefully and thank you,

Bb

 

[Carriage]

Wow, I have no idea how this last posted three times, my apologies everybody. I hoped it can be fixed soon. I did PM Vertical Limit. I will try to contact somebody else as well

I hate computers.....

Bb

 

[shorthorsemom]

Wow thanks for all the input and opinion. I know my horses former owner used the brake lightly and was excellent at knowing when and how to apply. My thoughts were to leave it as is and to do some basic training for standing so the brake is not a crutch. My mini boy is 32 inches. He has plenty of go and decent attitude. He also is just getting used to new owners and the standing issue I am having might have no bearing on his previous training, but rather to him getting used to a new rookie owner and style.

You are right that everything should be taken as a whole. I really didn't want to start chopping things off my new cart, but wanted to evaluate everything. I have much to learn and we are taking it slow. I value the opinions of people that have been driving much longer than I have. I am glad not to have a flood of people saying "get rid of the brake"... thanks for that. Looks like everything is welded and the only way to x the brake would be to use a cutter and chop it off, so I might just wait for a bit.

Right now I am practicing getting in and out of the cart in fluid motion, hooking up, and only driving under supervision and in a training arena. You are right about it being a marriage of sorts, marriage to the cart and to the horse.

Right now I am in the honeymoon phase

Learning everything at once.

I am doing plenty of farm walking on my feet, bonding and learning more about this little guy. So far nothing seems to phase him, even when deer jumped right up in our faces I almost jumped out of my skin, he just looked at them as if to say" cool".

thanks all

 

[Carriage]

Hey 'Mom

Sounds like you are doing just fine. The Honeymoon IS the the place to be. I mean after all you're still married. Mo and I are 24 years into a 99 year honeymoon. You grow in knowledge, experience and deferential treatment of your partner, but NEVER let the honeymoon end.

Hmmm. Positive marriage counseling, applied to driving. Works for me!

Please continue to let us know how you are doing because you TOO have input and opinion that we can gain from.

Drive on,

Bb

 

[Margo_C-T]

You did not say what type of brake-basic mechanical or hydrolic.

It would not be my personal choice to have brakes of either type on a two-wheeled cart for a miniature, esp. one that is under 34". It is certainly correct to say that one needs to carefully learn and practice how to PROPERLY UTILIZE brakes--IMO, this would ESPECIALLY be so if the brakes are on a miniature horse sized vehicle.

I owned a 'true' miniature-horse sized Meadowbrook once; it was a lovely vehicle, but HEAVY enough without the addition of brakes. I did not keep it for that reason; my driving miniatures then were all right at 34"(I say that because I now do have a near-38",and stout, one, and *might* have kept that cart for such a horse.)

I have also seen 'homebuilt' mechanical brakes(basically, a brake pedal that when applied,levered a steel 'plate' up against each of the wheels, very basic)on an EE pipe two-wheeled vehicle(also known as a 'cart'...these brakes were horrid, heavy, unwieldy, and ANY use of them adversely affected the horse(not my horse, but my personal observation and experience.)

I have three 4 wheeled vehicles; one has no brakes, one has mechanical brakes on the rear wheels(a buckboard), one has hydrolic brakes on the rear wheels. Yes, I find the brakes useful on these vehicles on occasion, but it takes considerable practice to learn to use them properly even on these vehicles, where they are much more properly needed/useful, IMO.

I do not think that having brakes on a cart would be particularly helpful with a horse that does not want to stand still after halting, and I don't think brakes on a cart are likely designed to be able to literally 'HOLD' the vehicle still should the horse seriously try to move it...it's not like they are the emergency brakes on a car. Sounds as if you are trying to do things right; I'd respectfully suggest a 'back-to-basics' approach of 're-training' to stand after halting. I don't think that brakes would have PREVENTED the kind of 'wreck' that happened before, and I don't think they would now. Suitable re-training, for as long as it takes, is your best bet, IMO. And, with all that said, never forget that EVERY horse is at bottom, a flight animal.

If it were me, and presuming that your trainer is a well-qualified, experienced driver, I'd follow his/her advice and get rid of the brakes, or as RWhiteman first suggested, disconnect them, and remove the pedal, at least. JMHO.

(I should add--I can't visualize how 'weeds and grass' getting tangled in the brake assembly could be dangerous, though I do think there could be some validity to your trainer's other concerns. Could you provide pics of the set-up as it now exists?)

Best of luck,whatever you do,

Margo

 

[RhineStone]

I can't emphasize this enough. Bits and brakes don't stop horses. Horses' brains stop horses.

The bit is to be a "signal" or a "cue". The brake is a helping aid for holding the vehicle back off the horse, as has been said. A bolting horse is making decisions that they should not be allowed to make, and the decision-making process needs to be addressed back in the barn first in a halter.

We have a marathon vehicle for our big horse that has four-wheel disk brakes. We have stepped on them "all the way" to see what the horse would do. Let me tell you, it DOESN'T stop them. They just pull harder (which is why we did it in the first place. We wanted to see how hard the horses would pull before they "give up". They don't.)

If you want to see what the brakes will do when you use them, "drive" your own cart while someone else is in the vehicle. Pull it around and have someone step on the brakes. Then you can make an "educated" decision as to whether or not you leave them.

If you are concerned about getting reins caught in them, make sure you are either sitting on the bight of the reins, or have the excess in your hand or across your arm.

Personally for a cart, I would do what Ron suggests.

Myrna

 

[shorthorsemom]

Thanks all, I am studying hard here. For now I am not using the brakes, keeping the reins out of the way and re-teaching the halt and stand and getting the boy used to me and my style. I also am not taking any steps forward without direction and instruction. I know my limitations and don't want to get into trouble. My trainer is experienced in CDE and also has driven minis. She runs with the big dogs in big horse CDE and I respect her opinion. I just didn't want to start cutting on the meadowbrook parts if I could just pretend the brakes were not there, and focus on the training aspect to get a proper stand. The brakes are the mechanical type with a metal plate that comes in contact with the wheel when you push on the pedal on the floor of the cart.

This boy is 32 inches, but strong and tough. More like a jeep than a corvette. My trainer thinks I can learn alot on this boy because he has more driving miles than I have, and I can apply my training to my other two minis and get them broke at a later date. I toyed with the idea of getting an easy entry cart so I could get in and out quickly, but I know these can turn into easy exit carts too. My boy is used to the meadowbrook.

 

[jleonard]

I am glad this topic came up as I just bought a two-wheeled vehicle with brakes as well (but for a pony) and had heard a lot of different opinions on the subject. I do not know how to use them, but am glad to have the option on the cart. I can take a few lessons, learn the proper use, and have an extra tool available to me in the future. I would not remove the brake from your cart, you don't have to use it at this point, and you may just want it someday!

Thanks for all the great info everyone!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Great post all the way around from Bob! He's too modest to tell you but he builds extremely light, tough carriages here in the NW and I'd trust the safety and mechanical soundness any of his rigs implicitly. He tests every variable into the ground!

Now all the reasons the trainer gave you for dxing the brakes while "potentially" valid, are again a training issue and not necessarily an issue with equipment. The training is for you. ...You getting tangled in the brake peddle, unless its some huge freakish appendage ( in which case we modify the brake peddle so that it is not) is the same answer. Don't. Train yourself NOT to get tangled. It is always constant in its location and build. It's not like it moves around or hides just to jump out and trip you when you're not looking.

Unless the rig is built out of balance or otherwise improperly constructed, and or the horse is improper for the rig selected, the PROPER application of mechanical braking should never "get you into trouble". I have over quite a few years now seen with my own eyes, the the proper application of mechanical brakes having the exact opposite effect on runaways. The mechanical brakes serves as a very effective means to get your voice and hands back into the horses head vs. flight. Miss Portia had this happen in a rig right in front of me at an AMHA show many years ago. When the horse spooked and was ready for flight, I said "hit the brakes" and she did PROPERLY. She instantly regained the horses mind and turned, gave me a huge smile and stated " I like that!"

I do not think that having brakes on a cart would be particularly helpful with a horse that does not want to stand still after halting...and I don't think that brakes would have PREVENTED the kind of 'wreck' that happened before

I think if it were my vehicle and the horse was okay with pulling the cart including the additional weight of the brake, I would not consider "unplugging" it. It is, as others have said, another tool which becomes available to you and might someday be of considerable help. Margo is right that a brake cannot hold the cart in place against a frustrated horse but if he suddenly has to work two or three times as hard to move it he's either going to think twice about it or at least tire out much more quickly! People with four-wheel carriages use the brakes to stop fussing during halts quite frequently and in my limited experience it does help prevent escalation when they hit a dead weight. It seems to calm the horses since it eliminates that sensation of "Dude, it's already rolling backwards a little, can't we go forward??" I know I would have loved to have had the option of brakes when Kody's stifles were so bad and we were coming down all those giant hills at Happ's.

Just being able to feather that weight back and keep it from rolling up on him so hard would have increased both our confidence levels.

I have never owned a vehicle with brakes but I can tell you I have much more success stopping a potential runaway with a "foot brake" then I do when I'm in the vehicle!

No question that the horse is more than strong enough to get away from me but nine times out of ten when he tries to spook/bolt and runs up against my planted feet on the end of those lines he stops and says "oops." If I'm in the cart he's sometimes inclined to tuck nose in to chest, ignore the bit and run for awhile before calming down just because he can.

I would think a good, strong, effective brake in the cart would have much the same effect as my feet do when combined with the rein and voice cues.

If you want to see what the brakes will do when you use them, "drive" your own cart while someone else is in the vehicle. Pull it around and have someone step on the brakes. Then you can make an "educated" decision as to whether or not you leave them.

I think this is the best suggestion yet!

Leia

Edited to add: I was sitting here at work on graveyard shift reading Heike Bean's "Carriage Driving: A Logical Approach Through Dressage Training" (yes, I'm that dorky) and noted she has three or four pages devoted to the subject of brakes. It is her opinion that a brake is an important safety device and should be used on both two and four-wheel vehicles. She has this to say about using brakes in training:

"You can also use the brake to educate the horse. If your horse likes to jig and rush toward home, without a brake all you have is your voice and rein action to try to correct him and get him to walk quietly. But the horse who jigs has probably already shortened himself up in the neck, and additional pressure on the bit is just going to make that problem more severe. But, if you have a brake, you can use it to teach him jigging is unpleasant. Instead of correcting him with rein action, just step on the brake to make pulling harder for him. This will often cure a jigging horse very quickly.

 

When your horse will not stand still but shifts back and forth- either from overeagerness, bad manners or an honest inability to hold a parked carriage steady on a hill- use the brake. Your horse will learn that when you tell him to stop, he must stop and stand. Pulling against a fully braked carriage will soon discourage him from moving off too soon- and you don't have to haul on his mouth."

 

[Carriage]

Great post all the way around from Bob! He's too modest to tell you but he builds extremely light, tough carriages here in the NW and I'd trust the safety and mechanical soundness any of his rigs implicitly. He tests every variable into the ground!

Much to the annoyance of people at times, however when it comes to the comfort and safety of the mighty midgets, to do otherwise is a disservice to these great horses. Pound for pound they are "doing" far more than the giants and flat out deserve the very best one can provide. The mechanical brake, when properly employed, helps to level the playing field.

While it is difficult to cover all the aspects of a brake system as applied to a cart in a post venue, I believe that most of the high points have been hit. Miss Leia's inclusion of Miss Hieke"s remarks round it well.

The use of the brake as a training tool in a limited way is also something we have used over the years, again, in a limited way.

Even in a dog pulled cart, the dog can pretty well drag you any where it wants and with wheels locked up to boot. The brake is not a stopping crutch. Horse and dog mentality are HUGELY different, to wit, the proper application of the brake, with a mini, unlike a dog in prey drive, is NOT to stop the cart but to be "heard" by the horse. As Miss Leia has pointed out, it does provide enough resistance and distraction during the runaway to let you get back into the head of the mini so that they can hear you and feel you. Will it work every-time? Probably not, but it has worked every-time I was present with a multitude of 2nd and 3rd hand reports stating same. Now one might argue with that if they chose but their basis in fact would run contrary to the aggregate of evidence to the contrary.

The primary and proper use of mechanical brakes is to assist the animal during inertial discomfort, period. All other applications are either ancillary or wrong, the later being detrimental to the horse. I do keep harping on the word "proper" purposely. The light application of the brake (inertial dissipation) does NOT put a huge saddle load on the mini. PERIOD. If you think so go try it. Improper application of the tool can and should be avoided at all cost. A crappy designed saddle with insufficient area to spread the load during mechanical braking can and will make the problem worse. That is a harness issue and not necessarily a problem with a properly designed brake and cart system. The pluses to a driver trained to use mechanical brakes properly and more importantly to the horse FAR outweigh the potential negatives imo.

Rons post was great as well. I think that disconnecting the brake system serves little function however. Its kind a like an unloaded gun. Without bullets it's no longer a gun, rather a paper weight or at best a throwing object, but it is no longer a gun, eh?

When we used a quick disconnect brake in years past it was only in response to an AMHA rule change, (supposedly) in offing. We still use that brake today just in case some brave soul wants to give it whirl. I am a huge fan of options and "wiggle" room. Taking away a tremendously helpful and versatile tool from your toolbox tends to be something I cringe at. Cause Murphy being Murphy, as soon as you do that,

you end up desperately needing said tool..... With some different hats I've worn in years past, you spend a fair amount of time getting into Murphy's head so-as to foil his tireless antics directed towards your person........

Hey 'Mom, I think your calm approach to the topic and wait and see demeanor is spot on. You are open to input and are carefully weighing all information. With this approach, over time, you will arrive at what is best for you and your little dude. He sounds like a superb driving horse. That is the biggest blessing of all.

Thanks for allowing me to be part of that input,

Bb

 

[shorthorsemom]

Thanks all for your replies, input and excellent descriptions!! I am so glad I asked.

I have a long way to go with my training. I appreciate the opinions and advice from all of you who have been there and done that. thanks

 

[Sue_C.]

I was very happy to see this subject come up. My new cart is on it's way...and I ordered it with brakes. We have so many rather steep hills here, and I think that any little thing I can do to help my horse is worth trying.

 

[shorthorsemom]

I had another driving lesson yesterday. I was able to avoid the brake pedal on the floor of my meadowbrook cart during my lesson and my trainer didn't mention taking it off again . My boy is starting to get used to me and he was stopping and standing great for me yesterday. I have a long way to go, but I was very encouraged yesterday by our lesson. We did good enough in the ring for my trainer to let me go on a short trail and that felt great too and I can tell my boy prefers trail to ring training. I only went on a short trail, but I started dreaming of hyperbikes along the way. Isn't that funny??? I guess reading that posting titled "my husband wants a hyperbike" got me started thinking of a light weight fun cart. am I crazy or what?

 

[Carriage]

"We did good enough in the ring for my trainer to let me go on a short trail and that felt great too and I can tell my boy prefers trail to ring training."

Yup I can identify. Going in circles is boring and frustrating. That preference is what I would want to see in my horse. Fun and adventure can be a great motivator.

Bb

 

[hobbyhorse23]

The trick is to keep their minds so busy that going in circles is fun and interesting. Not easy, but possible! The trail is always more fun but since I do show I can't let my boy become convinced that the arena is punishment so we work hard to have fun there as well.

Shorthorsemom, you aren't crazy at all! Who wouldn't want a hyperbike??

Leia

 

[shorthorsemom]

The trick is to keep their minds so busy that going in circles is fun and interesting. Not easy, but possible! The trail is always more fun but since I do show I can't let my boy become convinced that the arena is punishment so we work hard to have fun there as well.

Shorthorsemom, you aren't crazy at all! Who wouldn't want a hyperbike??

Leia

My trainer is trying just that, to make the ring fun for us. Yesterday was the first time I got my lesson on a short trail. My boy's attitude is getting better and better in the ring but I couldn't help noticing how he really perks up and gets happier on the trail. He really has "go" and you just point him in the direction you want and he is chugging along. I started my hyperbike dreams about then. I wish I could try one out before buying, I was wondering how it would accomodate me, I am short and not very bendable anymore. Some of our trails are uneven and I was thinking the hyperbike would allow me to go more places where a traditional meadowbrook might be unbalanced. It is like I am 16 years old driving my parents reliable volvo and I just spotted a porsche sports car and want to take it out for a spin. My trainer is good at keeping me grounded, she says "lets get good at the meadowbrook first". I am going to start saving my pennies toward the hyperbike anyway, dreaming is a good motivator.

Thanks to everyone that posted!