Surprise Foal Genetics - Smoky Cream

[Joanne]

So we had a foal born earlier this month that we thought was a palomino overo pinto, with two blue eyes. He was a coffee ice cream color at birth and that has lightened a bit. Clipped out I would expect he will be MUCH darker. The white jumps out on his face and legs.

Just got the genetic testing back from Animal Genetics and he is a Homozygous Black (EE), Double Cream (CrCr), Negative for both Frame and Sabino.

So he is a homozygous for black, smoky cream Splashed White pinto ??. He has high jagged white on all legs. Not sure how much white on his belly yet.

Here are his photos:

Sire is a Smoky Black Frame Sabino Splashed White:

This is his first foal and we did not know he carried a Cr gene until yesterday.

Dam is a solid Smokey Black. Her eyes were blue at birth and then turned amber:

Comments and insights from the people that know dilutes would be appreciated.

Thanks, Joanne

 

[disneyhorse]

Yep, sounds like you got it right! Cool thing about genetic testing now, at least you know for sure.

Double creams that are black ("smokey cream") are usually that darker white, unlike the cremellos which are bright white or perlinos that have the orangey points and mane/tail.

Since the sire (have you ever tested him for silver? He looks silver to me?) and the dam (smokey black, and again have you tested HER for silver? Most smokey blacks look like a black horse, no different) are black based, you won't see the cream gene. But obviously they both have one!

Cute colt!

Andrea

 

[Joanne]

Since the sire (have you ever tested him for silver? He looks silver to me?) and the dam (smokey black, and again have you tested HER for silver?

Cute colt!

Andrea

Both sire and dam are negative for silver. We tested them when the test was first available.

In fact I had sent in the sire as a silver as a foal. I just permanently registered him as a black, as he was negative for silver. I always thought this was the sabino gene making the coat lighter. Now I know that the dilution Cr gene played a part in that.

 

[bannerminis]

Amazing what you find out by testing. Your colt could stil have Sabino though as there are many variations of it and they only have the SB1 test at the moment. I have a 3yr old that I tested for Sabino and he came back negative even though he has white hair going through his coat. He has a blaze that slips off to the side and 4 white socks so could also be Splash.

I cant wait till they have the Splash test I am sure we will all be queing up at the door

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Joanne, Very interesting! I love it when we find out something surprising and cool!! And he's beautiful btw.

 

[Joanne]

I would LOVE to clip him, but that will not happen for a while. Still too cold in Northern California.

I am not ruling out sabino, but really just trying to wrap my mind around what a homozygous for black, homozygous for cream, smoky cream would do in a breeding program.

If I understand this correctly he would be a perfect breeding stallion if you wanted to consistently produce buckskins and smoky blacks.

He cannot produce palominos, or cremellos, but could produce a perlino, depending on the mare he is bred to. Correct??

 

[chandab]

If I understand this correctly he would be a perfect breeding stallion if you wanted to consistently produce buckskins and smoky blacks.

He cannot produce palominos, or cremellos, but could produce a perlino, depending on the mare he is bred to. Correct??

All his foals will be at least, black-based with one cream; then depending on what the mare contributes... smokey black, buckskin (mare would have to provide the agouti for buckskin), smokey cream (if mare has cream), perlino (if mare has cream and agouti). [And, you can include possible modifiers in there; dun and silver.]

 

[Joanne]

Yes, of course, dun and silver...

See, it is that learning curve trying to understand, as well as foaling season.

Did someone say sleep??

 

[Double T]

OOps ignore this post!

 

[Joanne]

You have my vote.

This mare has been "a horse of a different color" from birth. I named (mis named) her China Blue as her eyes were THE most beautiful color blue at birth, with an odd milk chocolate outer band that filled in over time and she morphed into amber eyes.

Dr Phillip Spoenberg agrees with you as well and calls her a champagne on a black background.

I never did a red factor or an agouti on her, but you are making me feel like I should.

Animal Genetics tested her for Champagne in 2008, and the test was negative.

I owned her dam for many years, but just recently sold her.

Her sire was Sid's Terminator, who is listed as a sorrel with a white mane and tail. Likely a silver bay

She has the most incredible irridescent color in sunlight.

 

[Double T]

You have my vote.

This mare has been "a horse of a different color" from birth. I named (mis named) her China Blue as her eyes were THE most beautiful color blue at birth, with an odd milk chocolate outer band that filled in over time and she morphed into amber eyes.

Dr Phillip Spoenberg agrees with you as well and calls her a champagne on a black background.

I never did a red factor or an agouti on her, but you are making me feel like I should.

Animal Genetics tested her for Champagne in 2008, and the test was negative.

I owned her dam for many years, but just recently sold her.

Her sire was Sid's Terminator, who is listed as a sorrel with a white mane and tail. Likely a silver bay

She has the most incredible irridescent color in sunlight.

I'd just read that on your site about her being negative, hence the deleted post, guess I should of left it. lol Learn somthing new everyday I guess as I thought Champagnes were the only ones that were born blue and changed, but apparently the dilutes can too. Here is my Classic Cream Champagne mare, basically a black base with one cream, no agouti or silver, and one champagne.

And last year when she foaled out of a what apparead to be coal black with a blaze and belly spot and two socks Brewer bred stud we were surprised with this:

She's a Gold Double Cream Champagne (Cremello Champagne) Red base (which proves momma and daddy carried a red gene), two cream genes(making daddy smokey black but not looking it) and a champagne gene. She's got two ice blue eyes that will prob not change becuase of the two cream genes, and a blaze if you catch her in the right light. Didn't test her for any pinto genes even though daddy carried obviously something pinto.

She had another Champagne filly this year, but I haven't gotten her tested yet for the cream but she's either a classic or classic Cream Champagne.

 

[disneyhorse]

Being a smokey cream, he cannot produce buckskin unless bred to a mare that carries the bay (agouti) gene.

I don't think he can produce palomino at all.

Pretty much he will produce black foals, that carry the cream gene, unless the mares bred to him carry some sort of modifiers.

Andrea

 

[Miniv]

What a neat little one! All of it is exciting, IMO.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

This is all so interesting Joanne. Thanks so much for posting it and I'm loving reading all the responses.

But, be careful!lol You'll be in the same pickle as me with "look alike" foals!

But seriously, Smokey Cream is one of the colors I am least familiar with and only recently even knew it existed. Buckskin, Perlino and Smokey Cream are the only color Spirit can produce so I'm finding this thread very informative. Thanks again!

 

[kaykay]

Did you test for tobiano?

 

[Carolyn R]

Very cool Joanne. Color genetics fascinate me.

 

[Joanne]

Teresa I am so glad you posted. I wish you had left your post on as many others I am sure would have learned about the very unusual gene your horse has. It was a very informative post which I appreciated. I will be following your suggestions and having some additional tests for bay and red factor done on China.

I have thought champagne all along and was floored when the test was negative.

From birth, all the horse people that see her say "what color is that?". She always stands out in my pasture as different.

Kay there is no tobiano on either side. I think the high white legs are splash or sabino.

I had to read up really quickly this week on smokey creams.

I had several phone consults with Animal Genetics and added a few more tests so we could understand what was happening.

No Andrea, he cannot produce a palomino or a cremello (red based), because he is homozygous black.

But bred to bays you would get the buckskins. And if the mare was a homozygous bay, you would get a buckskin everytime, since he carries double cream.

I think clipped out he will be the color of coffee ice cream. The mane is white now, which is throwing me off.

 

[kaykay]

Joanne isnt the sire tobi? I would be shocked if he tested negative. Tobi and frame can go hand in hand. Jagged white socks can be a clue to a horse carrying one copy of the Tobi gene.

Black Tested to Carry one Tobi gene (no body white whatsoever)

 

[Joanne]

No Kay. The sire is a frame sabino, who some have also thought might also carry splashed white. He is not carrying tobiano.

I think the splashed white or a sabino gene are creating the high white legs.

Here is the sire:

 

[Double T]

Teresa I am so glad you posted. I wish you had left your post on as many others I am sure would have learned about the very unusual gene your horse has. It was a very informative post which I appreciated. I will be following your suggestions and having some additional tests for bay and red factor done on China.

I have thought champagne all along and was floored when the test was negative.

From birth, all the horse people that see her say "what color is that?". She always stands out in my pasture as different.

I guess I should of, but I figured I was wrong on it so would just delete it. lol The Champagne gene is a neat one, I'm about hooked on it! LOL