A Personal Plea to Those Who Breed Tiny Ones

[Bess Kelly]

Breeding is a "crap shoot" Most serious breeders try their best to improve.....if they have done their homework, in all areas of conformation, bloodline, vetting, care, etc. they generally have a decent outcome. Time, experience and a serious of breedings, analyzing results is what normally tell the tale & shows prepotency areas. Thus, proven lines are sought out.

HOWEVER -- not every breeding pair will give you the results of which you dreamed!

As a breeder I have 2 animals whom I purchased

that have NEVER been bred, are still here and receiving the same care as my champions........because I felt their conformation was not what I wanted to see repeated. They are loved but, out of the gene pool.

Certainly there are others who have similar stories. Obviously there are animals that need to NOT be bred.

Some owners are barn blind, untrained/uneducated, surely they are NOT making a profit, just making feed money. Sorry, it's true. 30 yrs ago dwarves were used! We ALL know this. Tiny was "just being short". I do not believe this is true in the majority of cases today. But, an untrained eye for conformation can be an issue!

Having gone into minis years and years ago with the under 28's as my focus, I can ASSURE you that this is the most difficult of sizes to develop -- far less room for error in your choices.

Plus it takes more generations to downsize that to upsize. Overall, I am proud of my own farm accomplishments and with the progress that I have seen within the small sized animals out there from the recent breedings. IMO the smaller sizes are in less focus now than in years past, many owners having gone to the taller ones. Angle of observation is critical, as another mentioned....but, given that, conformation is still the #1 goal.

If you don't know your horses, know your breeder!

 

[ErikaS.]

I saw a cute little black weanling at the local auction with poor conformation. I offered $25 and a nice home for him, but the seller wanted more and was hoping he could be someone's herdsire!

 

[Reble]

It is not the size, conformation comes in all sizes.

& sometimes people just do not take good pictures.

We are all still learning, this is a great place to do it and need to teach others.

 

[wpsellwood]

Breeding is a crap shoot, but when you breed bad conformation to bad conformation its usually bad. The same flaws show up. The 30 and under are hardest I think to breed quality for. I even see horses that people say ahhhh they are so nice and still find major flaws. Ive seen as many poorly conformed 30 and up too. I know in large equine not just everyone can handle a stallion, but apparently everyone can in miniature. Theres the problem right there.

 

[Jessica_06]

many of the people I'm complaining about aren't even reading this forum.

You hit the nail on the head. I stopped at a farm up north a few miles, just happened across an ad when I stopped for gas coming home from a vacation. These people just raved about their horses. Especially the beautiful long MANES & TAILS. Yep, that's what I breed for. I gave them one of my cards which has a photo of one of my girls on it - the sorrel mare in my avatar. Their response - Oh you raise BIG horses? Nope, minis. They could not believe it. Couldnt' be a mini. Well not compared to theirs that's for sure!

And they had 3-4 mares in with a stallion in 3 pens.

. They had never seen any minis on the internet. Yes, they had access, but never looked. I gave them the LB site. Interesting to know if they ever looked it up.

I totally understand where you're getting at, since I live on a main road we deal with alot of people who don't have a clue. I really try to be helpful and say as much as I can, and I always give them this website and tell them they can learn just about everything from here. Don't know if they listen though.

 

[tagalong]

Breeding is a crap shoot, but when you breed bad conformation to bad conformation its usually bad. The same flaws show up. The 30 and under are hardest I think to breed quality for. I even see horses that people say ahhhh they are so nice and still find major flaws. Ive seen as many poorly conformed 30 and up too. I know in large equine not just everyone can handle a stallion, but apparently everyone can in miniature. Theres the problem right there.

Exactly. Everyone needs their own stallion!!

I have seen some pictures of herd sires that were nowhere near the quality of our show geldings.

And sadly, it is not just people not on the forum or the internet... a couple of websites linked through here that I have visited prided themselves on breeding stock that had ewe necks, no necks, no hip, back (or over) at the knees... but hey - they are the desired colour so who cares how they are put together?!!

I find it frustrating - breeding the best to the best and hoping for the best is a crapshoot - but when you breed low quality to poor quality, you are already aiming low and the roll of the dice will never be in your favour. Just more badly put together minis - no matter how nice their temperament may be - being bred in turn and/or running through the auction rings...

It is not the size, conformation comes in all sizes.& sometimes people just do not take good pictures.

True... but a ewe neck is still a ewe neck. A short, thick neck and straight shoulder cannot look good no matter who the photographer is. Not every picture is one where the horse is set up and photographed by a professional - but quality shines through even in a casual photo. A badly put together horse does not need a poor photo to make him look that way...

We are all still learning, this is a great place to do it and need to teach others.

Which is what this discussion - and many others - is all about.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

OK, a new day, a new perspective...well somewhat.

My friend Barb and I play a game where we see who can find the ugliest, poorest conformed mini for sale. (It helps me improve my eye and it educates me.) I guess we've played it one too many times, because I just am completely overwhelmed by how easy our stupid little "game" is!

I know it's very easy to find terrible representations of all the breeds - ever read fugly? There is NO short supply of irresponsible breeders in any breed or species.

But what I do is love, show and breed minis, so they are what concerns me. Specifically, I love the tiniest of the minis. Always have. And for a long time after getting into minis I really couldn't understand why the tiny ones, usually around 30" and under, seemed to be the focus of a lot of bad press. Sadly, I've come to understand why. There's a lot of truth to it. OH! I think it's the same as how a lot of people make pejorative comments about wildly colored horses and their breeders.

Here's why I think this way. It's really hard to breed correct, beautiful minis period. But when you get into the tinier ones, it gets even harder. There's less quality stock to chose from, higher probability that you may come up with a dwarf (don't tell me dwarfs come in all sizes, I know that), more of them turn out with long backs, short necks, over at the knees, etc. But when you are breeding 34" horses and your horses are ugly, you don't have people lined up at your door to buy them. When you breed 26" horses you DO have people, generally unsuspecting first-timers who will shell out the bucks for a cute little horse. Better yet, you make up some new category and call them something like "micro" minis and act like you're the only one on earth who has ever bred a tiny mini.

So I do think the under 30" group has its special issues - in breeding, in advertising, in care in some instances. And we (breeders of the tiniest ones) have to try extra hard to produce quality horses.

I am NOT making veiled comments about people like Charlotte and Frank, Tony, and others (sorry if I can't think of everyone right now) who breed small ones. They have done it for years and they know the ups and downs and have produced many, many awesome horses. I'm talking about the losers that don't care what miserable little things they are producing and as long as there are uneducated buyers out there, I guess they'll continue to have a demand.

Well, maybe I'm NOT over it yet!

Parmela,
I would LOVE to breed my little 28" mare Whirlwind to your Merlin. I sure can envision one gorgeous tiny foal coming from that cross. Too bad you live so darn far away from me!

Thank you Connie for the nice words about Merlin.

[

In my opinion, the breeding of miniature horses with bad conformation is not limited to the small horse.....and it is not the 30" and under miniature that produces all the dwarves. A dwarf is small but a small horse is not a dwarf.My focus is for the conformation first but the goal is for an under 30" horse. I did not breed any this year, and only had two foals this year. One will probably be under 30" and his conformation is great. I do plan on gelding him because my grandson is in love with him and would like to show him. The other one is a filly and will go way over 30"

I have a stallion that is 29 3/4" and was National top 10 stallion and in color in AMHR.

Please don't attack all those that love the 30" and under horse. It is unfair to group all farms based on some that you have seen on the web. Let's look at the problem as a whole..........there are too many breedings of horses of all sizes that aren't breeding quality.

As president of the SmallestHorse Group, I would like you to visit the websites of our members. Our goal is to promote the smallest horse for the very reasons that you have stated here.........lots of misconception.

This is not posted to start an argument and not intended to flame.

Teresa,

I plan on joining your group this year. I think, for the most part, all your members are doing a great job. But everyone can stand to improve. Even me.

 

[Riverdance]

Parmala,

Did you see that show last year that ran I think only a few times. The guiness World Book of records and they had a Mini trying to jump. I forget what they called that one, a Midget Mini or something like that.

They said how rare they were and how expensive they were. The little mare was not that small, I am pretty sure she was over 30" and a really poor example of what a good Mini should look like.

It was a dumb show and I did send them an e-mail that they should get their facts straight first before they put something on like that. That Mini's were jumping a lot higher than that Mini did and that there was no such thing as a Midget Mini, just some dumb cluck who decided to name them that so that she could sell her junk for more money.

On another note, I got a phone call from someone this past summer who saw that I had a 14" mini for sale. I do not know where he was coming from, nor is there any Mini out there that is a full grown 14". I only have one Mini under 30" and she is 29".

I also got contacted by several news sources when Riverdance Miniatures in Austrailia had that dwarf baby. They all wanted to write about it in their magazines. What a great way to encourage people to breed dwarfs.

I told all of them that it was not something to write about or be proud about. Would it be considered world news for a human to have a dwarf baby? Then it should not be considered world news for a Mini horse to have a crippled dwarf baby that will have health and leg issues all of its life.

There is nothing prettier than a very little perfect Mini, but I am afraid to even try to breed mine that small.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Parmala,
Did you see that show last year that ran I think only a few times. The guiness World Book of records and they had a Mini trying to jump. I forget what they called that one, a Midget Mini or something like that.

They said how rare they were and how expensive they were. The little mare was not that small, I am pretty sure she was over 30" and a really poor example of what a good Mini should look like.

It was a dumb show and I did send them an e-mail that they should get their facts straight first before they put something on like that. That Mini's were jumping a lot higher than that Mini did and that there was no such thing as a Midget Mini, just some dumb cluck who decided to name them that so that she could sell her junk for more money.

On another note, I got a phone call from someone this past summer who saw that I had a 14" mini for sale. I do not know where he was coming from, nor is there any Mini out there that is a full grown 14". I only have one Mini under 30" and she is 29".

I also got contacted by several news sources when Riverdance Miniatures in Austrailia had that dwarf baby. They all wanted to write about it in their magazines. What a great way to encourage people to breed dwarfs.

I told all of them that it was not something to write about or be proud about. Would it be considered world news for a human to have a dwarf baby? Then it should not be considered world news for a Mini horse to have a crippled dwarf baby that will have health and leg issues all of its life.

There is nothing prettier than a very little perfect Mini, but I am afraid to even try to breed mine that small.

Oh geez Sue. I didn't see that show but it would have really ticked me off.

 

[CyndiD]

Maybe I'm just having a bad day. I don't know. But I've really had it with visiting websites where people are OBVIOUSLY

I have to ask....are you basing your comments on the photos you see on the websites?????? I don`t agree that photos always show a horse at their best advantage...and if you are a poor photographer like me....its a given they will look bad.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Maybe I'm just having a bad day. I don't know. But I've really had it with visiting websites where people are OBVIOUSLY

I have to ask....are you basing your comments on the photos you see on the websites?????? I don`t agree that photos always show a horse at their best advantage...and if you are a poor photographer like me....its a given they will look bad.

Cyndi,

There is NO way your horses, or their pictures, represent what I'm talking about. I sure don't have the experience that many others do, but I can see through a bad picture pretty easily. I'm not talking about poor quality photos. I'm talking about poor quality horses.

 

[EAD Minis]

I agree 100%

And why does it always seem to be the the tiny UNCORRECT horses who are always the"oh How cute" during public events.

It seems uneducated people seem to think THAT is a miniature horse because it is 'cute'. Its frustrating!!!

My parents did the same thing (and Im sure I did to at my first mini event), thankfuly after much teaching and education my mom, dad, sister, brother AND boyfriend know what a proper miniature hrose is (through many pictures and vidoes of course).

And I try to not go by pictures, although I do enjoy a nice picture being in person is the best way to judge a horse

 

[midnight star stables]

I have said over and over again, do not breed your horses if you do not know what good conformation looks like. Too often I see people post pictures of poor quality horses they just bought. That is fine and good if they are just going to be pets, but many of them are purchased for breeding.

Even worse, others say what a beautiful horse it is. How is anyone supposed to learn?
I am sure that I will be flamed for this, but please guys, we all profess to love this breed. If you do so, then you should want to make it the best we all can! Just making babies is NOT what this breed needs.

I agree to this and all Pamela said.

..But people are ignorant, it will take time for change.

 

[Bess Kelly]

There will ALWAYS be buyers who look onlyat the "cute factor".....often these are the non-horse people who think the dwarf is cute. We all know about the care, expense, issues, etc. However, so long as they bring more money than the correct ones at some unrestricted auction, it will be a fact we will need to deal with.

As to my comment "breeding is a crapshoot"...........I meant only that try as hard as we may, there will always be the genetic combinations that we cannot TOTALLY assemble ourselves for the best. We can only breed what has thus far shown good results and hope for the best.

Shame horses can't be like dogs --- short gestation and several in the litter --- then we could possibly get a better "handle" on results

Of course, even this wouldn't help the ones who breed without regard to the quality issues.

"Little" is always "cute". No matter the animals, usually. When I have foals, I generally put them in the front pasture where people stop and watch them

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Maybe I'm just having a bad day. I don't know. But I've really had it with visiting websites where people are OBVIOUSLY

I have to ask....are you basing your comments on the photos you see on the websites?????? I don`t agree that photos always show a horse at their best advantage...and if you are a poor photographer like me....its a given they will look bad.

Yes, of course opinions are based on photos!!

If you put rotten photos up on the web, on your site, advertising your horses then you deserve to have opinions made based on them!!

Get good photos or do not post them, basically!

I have stayed out of this until now as you must know how I feel about breeding animals under 30", even with the height difference and the fact that people just exaggerated or, I am perfectly sure in some cases, put the horses birth height down, there is a definite danger every time you breed from an under 30 " mare.

Now, I still aim for tinies, it is just that I shall be doing it through tiny stallions from now on.

I shall also be making sure the conformation stays spot on....no point in just getting one part of the equation right, after all, we had that in Arabs for a while, when all people were breeding for was the head...that was fun

So I am now breeding mostly from mares around 32" (which takes them down to 30" your way and, in one case 29", BTW) and using smaller stallions.

I still have three under 30" mares who are now seasoned broodmares and have little trouble breeding, but my 21" nine month filly is never going to make breeding height, and neither is my 28" two year old, I am no longer willing to take that risk, foaling time is stressful enough as it is!!

 

[icspots]

I got bashed pretty good on a previous thread where I commented on the under 30s being "disproportionate". So now we're agreeing that they are? IMO we have all become "mini blind", we are willing to accept a horse that wouldn't be mistaken for a full sized breed under any circumstance because it's a small mini. I find myself saying "nice mini", and not "nice horse". I think that is a problem. I had a volume breeder tell me when I first started that little and cute is the way to go, there is always a demand. BUT, coming from big horses, I had a hard time reconciling myself to that notion. Just as I have a hard time reconciling myself to the get the right pedigree and you've got something mentality. It is NATURAL human nature to be somewhat barn blind, we fall in love with our horses for their positives, and start not seeing the negatives. I also believe that they all have some purpose in life, but for many of them that purpose is not in reproduction! That being said, I know of one very popular bloodline that produces some seriously thick necks. This bloodline is absolutely stunning if they have been expertly tweaked for many months, but in their natural state are quite hideous. I don't hear anyone suggesting that we curb breeding on thick necks, so don't think I'm only picking on the tiny horse breeders! Parmela has a point that we should learn something about conformation before breeding, but anytime I see a breeder focusing on one thing, be it size, color or pedigree, my reaction is to look at everything else first because I think that breeder has only one objective and they don't care about anything else.

 

[sdmini]

Telling people what can and can not be bred is a pool I don't care to wiggle my toes in. Sure we all would love to see a better quality of horse being raised across the board but unless you are willing to feed and care for those animals I don't think its any of our business what their owners choose to do with them.

Not always the case but the majority of time you find a bad breeder and you can trace them back to a bad seller. Someone who pawned their full bodied, thick necked, heavy boned individual as a fabulous breeding animal. Or those that sell mediocre individuals to newbie's for inflated prices because he/she is a National or World Champion...in color or costume but I guess that is for another rant.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Not always the case but the majority of time you find a bad breeder and you can trace them back to a bad seller. Someone who pawned their full bodied, thick necked, heavy boned individual as a fabulous breeding animal. Or those that sell mediocre individuals to newbie's for inflated prices because he/she is a National or World Champion...in color or costume but I guess that is for another rant.

True. But not an excuse in my book. I certainly purchased (for LOTS of money) horses early on that since I didn't know any better I believed what I was told. My favorite is the one that I was told was "perfect in every way." I will NEVER forget that phrase. But I didn't know any better and thought I had purchased such a cute horse! And it was cute.

Then my friend Dixi came over and took one look and said "that horse has a roach-back don't you think?" I was like "what's a roach-back?" OH! It was the first horse I'd purchased at that time without asking Dixi ahead of time what she thought. (Served me right I guess!

) I didn't know enough. I should have asked for help. And the seller KNEW I was purchasing horses to show! Folks, the horse was a DWARF!!! Perfect in every way? Yeah, a perfect dwarf! I eventually found that sweet little thing a home as a PET. Very clearly advertised as a pet, got in writing that no breeding was to happen in the future and I checked the vet references of the buyer.

My point being I don't blame the seller. I am responsible for educating myself. It's buyer beware. Would I ever buy from that breeder again? Heck no! And I would NEVER do that to someone else, but I'm responsible for what I buy. Nobody else.

Maybe since I had someone honest who sold me my very first few horses I assumed every seller was honest. Not the case! Buyer beware and buyer EDUCATE thyself!

BTW: Dixi at Knee-Hi Acres sold me my first 3 or so horses (and some since). Even when I knew NOTHING about minis and she could have royally screwed me,she didn't. She spent hours and hours giving me information. Did she sell me a pet quality horse? Yep. But she TOLD me it was a pet. She also told me Star was show quality and many Grands later I believe her!

But, I digress.

 

[Margaret]

Anyone who has been in this business awhile can attest to the saying:

fooled once, shame on you... fooled twice shame on me. ( I know I can )

What we cannot change is peoples goals in why they are breeding what they have.

Everyone has their own ethics that drives them to breed.

The smartest thing someone new can do is take along someone experienced who knows good conformation,

so that they dont get fooled into believing something tht isnt true.

 

[Riverdance]

Or those that sell mediocre individuals to newbie's for inflated prices because he/she is a National or World Champion...in color or costume but I guess that is for another rant.

I would not be putting down color class. In AMHR color class is based only on the color of the horse, nothing else. Conformation has nothing to do with the AMHR color class.

Very different for AMHA, conformation plays a good part in the color class. If a horse has beautiful markings or a nice color alone, it will not place with AMHA. There are many AMHA World Champion's in color only who have gone on to produce halter class World Champions.