Absolutely No Way!!!!

[Magic Marker Minis]

I'm a Color Calculator Ho... Let's establish that up front... I love to cross and re-cross color in my herd to find out what I'll get... I also like to research my horses' pedigrees to find out how so and so horse came to be a certain. I have found that A LOT OF HORSES registered in AMHA (and probably AMHR as well) have been 'misdiagnosed' as to color... okay... So, this morning I'm putzing around trying to find out what one of our mares has produced in the past and to see how she came up supposedly having grullas.... But, that's another story...

We were looking at Buckeroo's pedigree and all of a sudden, like a lightning bolt, like a runaway freight train, like a slam in the forehead with a sledge hammer... There's absolutely no freaking way that Poplar Lanes Samson was a sorrel!!!!!!!! Sorrel and Palomino CANNOT, absolutely, CANNOT, produce a BUCKSKIN!!!!!

Because, if Poplar Lanes Samson was a sorrel and Johnston's Vanilla was a Palomino, they can only produce Palomino and Sorrel, Then, obviously, we've been TOTALLY FOOLED all these years... BUCKEROO WAS NOT A BUCKSKIN!!! NO STINKING WAY!!!! He was a Palomino (or a sorrel).

So, did I just come late to this party? Does everyone else know that Samson was probably NOT a sorrel... and I just 'twigged.' I feeling really "stoopid" right now... HELP!

Kari

 

[ohmt]

Pretty common to have incorrect colors. I have finally decided I agree with Jane (rabbitsfizz) that Buckeroo was silver buckskin. I'm actually almost certain of it-did a lot of research to disprove it. Well, he was one. I would guess his sire was silver bay or bay and I do think we've had a thread about it before. Many bays and silver bays are registered as chestnuts, especially if they were registered before they shed their baby fuzz to give them the dark points.

Colors on some of my old girls papers:

Silver black listed as cremello

Bay listed as dark chestnut

silver black listed as palomino

-Great example of why you should never take anyone else's word for it.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS!

 

[chandab]

I haven't seen pics of Samson, but if what you say is true, then he was probably silver bay (commonly mistaken for sorrel); and Buckeroo is indeed buckskin (not sure if he might even be silver buckskin, I don't know), he inherited the "bay" portion from his sire and the cream from his dam to make him buckskin.

 

[shalakominiatureshowhorses]

Well, if silver bay is commonly mistaken for sorrel, then maybe Bentley is silver bay? I believe his sire and his dam were bay pintos, but thats just by first glance. He is in his winter coat at the moment, and its bright red. But when I shave him, he is like silverfish-silver?

The horse im talking about is in my avatar 1 month after shaving.

 

[Mona]

If you are referring to the one in your avatar, then yes, he definitely looks silver bay!

 

[REO]

Silver bays often look like sorrel/chestnut horses. I have some myself!

Silver bays carry black and agouti and when bred to palomino CAN make buckskins. And some palominos are not really palominos, but can be or carry something else. My palomino pinto mare carries agouti and has made buckskin with a black stallion.

 

[Margo_C-T]

Yep, agree w/ Mona; look at the 'greyish' shading on those legs, esp. the right front just below the knee. It's a dead giveaway that a horse that may 'look' sorrel, is in fact a silver bay(along w/ the 'greyish' undercoat you refer to that you see when you body clip him.!)Pintos who have extensive white, esp. on the lower legs,often don't show that 'grey' shading that in solid silver bays would generally show from about the knees/hocks down.

My 'dowager', 30 YO mare was listed on her AMHA papers as a 'chestnut', with a 'flaxen' M/T, and blue eyeS...in truth, she is a silver bay,and has ONE blue eye. Photos WERE required, even back when she was registered, but didn't help in preventing these mistakes. One of her foals, by a PALOMINO, is a blood BAY; if she were actually a 'sorrel/chestnut',that couldn't have happened! (Her second foal by the same palomino was a heavily, evenly sabino-roaned, SILVER.(Dam has sabino, sire did not.)The OP actually contacted me about this mare and a stallion I'd owned who were the grandparents of a mare she owns, to ask about their 'true colors'.)

Margo

 

[targetsmom]

When Max was born he certainly LOOKED like a chestnut pinto, and having a chestnut sire and gray dam it would have been easy to put that on his papers. But the gray dams was color tested and known to be homozygous for black, carrying agouti and silver, so she was a silver bay genetically. Thus I knew he could not be chestnut and indeed he was color tested and also a silver bay, Both he and his dam were also lethal white + which was the main reason they were color tested.

Bunny, Max's full sister in my avatar, looked similar at birth and she was also tested as a silver bay, but she is LWO negative.

And yes, I noticed that in Buckeroo's pedigree too, and figured that his sire was actually a silver bay.

 

[shalakominiatureshowhorses]

So, would you just change the color on its registry? Or leave it as it is. Bentley's says sorrel pinto. Would you HAVE to change it to silver bay pinto???

And, I also have a "silver buckskin" Jazzy. Im not sure what his coloration is for sure though.

I cant post pics for some reason right now....sorry. But look under my album titled "Jazzy". He is a dark gray with white or silver hairs on his shoulders and flanks. But, in the summer those white hairs just turn lighter? IDK, its weird. Anyway, his sire is (i believe) a cremello and his dam is black or a REALLY dark bay. Is he a silver buckskin, or just a buckskin, or what??? Sorry Magic Marker Minis, Im asking too many questions on your topic :/

 

[Magic Marker Minis]

Oh, thank you Jesus...There is a Santa Claus. <vbg> I was afraid I'd woken up in the wrong universe this morning...

I must have been at the bus station with the Buckeroo color discussion left the port...

Thank you all for clearing that up. I am familiar with the silver gene and how it manifests. (Hi, Margo!) We have a silver bay mare, a silver smoky black stallion (we'll test to make sure he's got the cream gene) and a silver buckskin filly. The only pic I have found of Samson is a very blurry black & white pic so I couldn't really tell what color he was.

I love color research and I'm constantly amazed at the 'color mistakes' I find. The aforementioned silver smoky black stallion's papers say he's a silver dun... The filly in my avatar with the blaze is smoky black, but we'll have her tested to make sure.

Thanks everyone!

Kari

 

[supaspot]

the AMHA wont put silver smoky black on the papers , although Absolut is dna tested they will only put him down as smoky black or silver black , I gave up trying ages ago

 

[supaspot]

So, did I just come late to this party? Does everyone else know that Samson was probably NOT a sorrel... and I just 'twigged.' I feeling really "stoopid" right now... HELP!

Kari

sorry ...yes I think its pretty common knowledge

 

[ruffian]

That would certainly explain why my Thumper, who "looks" palomino, keeps throwing silvers -- silver buckskin, silver dapple - and silver bays. He's the one in my avatar. Should have added, his mom was a chestnut - I've seen photos - no silver there, she's by Glenn's General Patton.

 

[ohmt]

Ruffian-silver hides on red and I am fairly certain Patton carries silver. He has sired a very high number of silver foals (all 3 of his foals in his 2000 get of sire class were silver bays) and quite a few of the horses in his pedigree were silver bays and not chestnut/sorrel as listed. I would test Thumper-he.could be homozygous for it. Unless he has sired any black based foals without silver, that is.

 

[chandab]

the AMHA wont put silver smoky black on the papers , although Absolut is dna tested they will only put him down as smoky black or silver black , I gave up trying ages ago

AMHR doesn't recognized silver smokey black, either.

Manny is silver smokey black (bay sire, cremello dam). I put smokey silver black on his papers, they looked at the pictures and put him down as chestnut, which isn't even close. I don't think he looks remotely chestnut in the pictures, but that's what they saw. I would have been happy with silver black or smokey black.

Here's Manny (first pic is one I sent in):





Neither show is color very well, but he certainly doesn't look chestnut (and can't be with a double cream dam; she's registered cremello, but I believe her to be smokey cream).

 

[Magic Marker Minis]

Where does AMHA get off changing the color of a horse you send in to register? Do they have the right to change it? Will they do that even if you get them color tested before sending in the registration papers?

Kari

 

[chandab]

Where does AMHA get off changing the color of a horse you send in to register? Do they have the right to change it? Will they do that even if you get them color tested before sending in the registration papers?

Kari

If you have done color testing, then send in a photocopy of the color testing results. but, they'll still only register the horse as one of their recognized colors (I believe the colors are listed on the application paperwork, or at the very least is on the website); so you better choose the color on the list that is as close to what the horse is as you can. I don't believe either registry recognizes "silver smokey black" (or if you prefer smokey silver black - so in my case I should have chosen silver black or possibly silver buckskin which are recognized), to my knowledge they only recognize cremello for all double creams (so even if you know your horse to be perlino or smokey cream, it'll get registered as cremello), and there are a few other combinations that aren't recognized (or at the very least, they don't have enough spaces/places in their data base for yet another set of codes for more color choices).

 

[rubyviewminis]

I believe they recognize visual color and not genetic, BUT they are wonderful to talk to about your registration color choice, the ones they recognize. Although a copy of the genetic test will be looked at and considered in the decision if you speak to them. My homozygous black, silver black/silver dapple mare was registered as palomino and her terrible foal picture on the registration did indeed make her look palomino. I called them after sending in her transfer with updated photos that glaringly showed her silver as all get out with huge bright white dapples all over her. They were more than happy to change her color description on the registration. In summer she was black, black with a flaxen mane and tail. They have every right to change the color or marking on your registration if they believe it is wrong.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Well, it is past time for the AMHA to enter the 21st century if you ask me. I have said before and I shall say it again- it is ILLEGAL for them to require members to LIE on a registration document. I do not register with the AMHA at the moment as I breed British horses, but when I did I made them (I MADE them) put the correct colours on the forms. Now, these do not go up on the Stud Book on line as I don't think it has ever been updated (in spite of them saying they were going to and being given the money to do it) so it does not actually have some colours in the programme, but I have the correct colours on my papers. They WILL put Smoky Silver Black on your papers, if you stand your ground and shout (squeaky wheel and and all that) but it will not go on the SBOL.

I have NO idea why anyone would ever have thought Samson was a Sorrel- I was not even more than vaguely aware that he was registered as such- he is quite obviously, even from a B&W photo, a Silver Bay. I am glad you have seen the light OHMT- from the amount of Silver Buckskins that he threw it was obvious that Buckeroo was Silver- Cream seems to suppress the expression of Silver, in Buckskins, but it shows when they are young- look at baby pictures of Buckeroo and you will see he is visually Silver! And if you look at Alvadars DD you will see a startling change over the years! The son of Alvadars DD that I know personally is, now, visually, a straightforward, black mane and tailed, Buckskin , but as a youngster he had cream in his mane and tail and was obviously a Silver carrier (which he has proven) as he matured the black came in and the Silver disappeared.

 

[valshingle]

I agree it would be great if AMHA and AMHR recognized every possible color combination. However, in this economy I don't think it's fair to criticize them for not spending the money to upgrade the computer program to include every color. I've been in the AMHA office and seen the reduced staff still cheerfully work their butts off to take care of all our paperwork. They're trying their best to not raise rates and still offer the service their customers want.