Actual color versus Genetic color

[ruffian]

At a show recently, a lady brought up a cute little mare to be measured, looked to me like a silver buckskin or dun. I check her papers - P A L O M I N O -- WHAT?? This mare is NOT Palomino. I asked if I had the right papers as they showed palomino and the mare was clearly not. She smiled and said that yes, genetically the mare is palomino. She was very more versed in the color genetics coding than I, and reeled off the genes involved. That was very interesting, but the fact is that the mare did not LOOK palomino. So how do the officials handle that? It's all well and good to have the genetically correct colors or patterns on the paperwork, but if I look at a horse that looks buckskin but shows pali, solid with a blaze and blue eye and papers say frame overo, whatever and doesn't match the paperwork information, I would be hesitant to accept them.

I had a gelding who in full coat was palomino, but clipped short was a silver dapple. Of course when we went to Nationals, he was clipped in a 15 and had beautiful dapples. Since he was already permanent when I got him, he was registered as a palomino. The steward did not want to accept the papers until I showed him where I had left some hair longer near the mane and his tail V to see the gold color.

IMO registration papers should describe the animal being presented, not necessarily the genetic color. Am I the only one who feels that way?

 

[CheyAut]

I think there are more minis registered the WRONG color than are the correct color!

 

[cretahillsgal]

I had this happen to me last year. I have a sooty buckskin colt who is genetically tested to carry black, cream and agouti. Thus he is a buckskin, genetically. That is what is on his papers. But when he is clipped he looks exaclty like a bay. The steward at the show also thought I had the wrong horse. Of course, he has already been DNA and PQ and when I get his permanent papers the pictures on them will look more like he truley does. Right now his foal pics are on his papers and he had more cream hairs as a foal.

I think that the papers should reflect the horse's true genetic color and not just what they look like. It is already hard enough to look at a horse's pedigree and tell what color their parents are.

 

[Becky]

Personally, I feel that horses should be registered the color they are genetically if known. With todays genetic testing available, there's not too many reasons not to. We've gone long enough with incorrect colors and patterns on papers.

I do, however, think it would be a very good idea for the registrys to list both phenotype and genotype if known. Less confusion for all involved. Especially when papers and horses need to match.

I have a real pet peeve for horses being registerd as colors they are NOT!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

The registries don't even have an option for "silver buckskin." How are we supposed to list the correct color by either genotype OR phenotype when they aren't recognized by the registry?

Leia

 

[Sue_C.]

The true colour of the horse is what should be on the papers. Just because a BODY CLIPPED horse doesn't look the correct colour is no reason to change papers...what happens if someone later decides to show the horse in it's natural coat...change the papers again to refelect that? This is another reason I dislike clipping a horse until it resembles a new born rat under the pretense that that is the only way a judge can see the conformation.

Besides, in this particular case...the pally could of been a dun as well, just not tested to prove it.

 

[Songcatcher]

.... This is another reason I dislike clipping a horse until it resembles a new born rat under the pretense that that is the only way a judge can see the conformation. ....

I'm with you 100% on that!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I have long thought there should be a "phenotype" and "genotype" colour box. Thus if you have a White horse who has been tested to be Black you put White in the "phenotype" box and Black in the "genotype" box....if a horse has not been tested you put down what he looksto be in the "phenotype" box and leave the other one blank. If, at a later date , he is tested to be another colour, that can be added at a small cost.

If your horse is registered as Palomino it should lookPalomino or have a piece of paper to say it is Palomino, as far as I am concerned. How do you you know (no offence is intended by this statement, BTW, it is merely a random "what if") that the person concerned was not showing the wrong horse and blinding you with science??

 

[Loess Hills]

Personally, I feel that horses should be registered the color they are genetically if known. With todays genetic testing available, there's not too many reasons not to. We've gone long enough with incorrect colors and patterns on papers.
I do, however, think it would be a very good idea for the registrys to list both phenotype and genotype if known. Less confusion for all involved. Especially when papers and horses need to match.

I totally agree with Becky. I think we're getting a glimpse of the future with genetic testing, combined with DNA. In ten years we may see that on registration papers. With the testing available now and many breeders color testing, there is little reason they couldn't be combined for a horse to list both phenotype and genotype.

 

[minimule]

In order for all that to work, the registries need to be updated to accept the TRUE color of a horse. We had a genetically tested Smokey Cream colt a while back. One registry listed him as a Perlino, the other a Cremello. He is neither! Until both change their methods, horses are still going to be listed with the wrong true color.

 

[Katiean]

I have a mare that is registered as Bay. She is Black as Black can get. In certian light she does have a bit of a rusty color in her flanks. She also has scatered white hairs on both sides of her nose and now in her flanks. Her mother is a Silver Dapple and her dad is a Buckskin. Would you say by the discription Bay?

 

[cretahillsgal]

I agree part of the problem is that the registries do not have the option for some of the true colors. I recently sent in registration for a smokey black pinto filly. Smokey black wasnt an option, so I attached a sticky note explaining that she is lab tested. We will see what they put on her papers.

 

[Sue_C.]

In order for all that to work, the registries need to be updated to accept the TRUE color of a horse. We had a genetically tested Smokey Cream colt a while back. One registry listed him as a Perlino, the other a Cremello. He is neither! Until both change their methods, horses are still going to be listed with the wrong true color.

At least the one that listed him as perlino got the base colour correct...the other is way out in left field...

 

[love_casper]

I think genotype is what belongs on papers, and both owners and the registries need to be educated on what phenotypes those can appear as. Palomino looks to me to be the single most misregistered color out there. My stallion's registered as palomino, he's anything but that!

I'm also wondering how the heck a horse with so much visual black on it can be red based?! That shouldn't really be possible, unless the horse was a reallllyyy sooty palomino. What did the owner say the genes involved were? If she was simply tested for cream or something that could easily be plenty of other colors.

 

[Charlotte]

I have long thought there should be a "phenotype" and "genotype" colour box. Thus if you have a White horse who has been tested to be Black you put White in the "phenotype" box and Black in the "genotype" box....if a horse has not been tested you put down what he looksto be in the "phenotype" box and leave the other one blank. If, at a later date , he is tested to be another colour, that can be added at a small cost.

YES! YES! YES Jane! Exactly! There is no reason the registries can't add that little bit of information to our certificates. We , the breeders, just have to work at getting this done. Submit rule changes, etc.

Our registration certificates do need to have the phenotype on them so that those needing to can judge if the horse they are looking at matches the paperwork, but with today's genetic testing the genotype should be on there too. The rule could require that any genotype information would have to come from laboratory test results only.

Charlotte

 

[midnight star stables]

Well almost all my horses have the wrong colour listed. My perlino is a "palomino". My grey is a "black". I have another I think is Gulla(sp) but is listed black too. Just to name a few.

 

[ruffian]

"In order for all that to work, the registries need to be updated to accept the TRUE color of a horse. We had a genetically tested Smokey Cream colt a while back. One registry listed him as a Perlino, the other a Cremello. He is neither! Until both change their methods, horses are still going to be listed with the wrong true color."

IMO the true color of the horse is the color that the horse IS when it is standing in front of me. Please please PLEASE do not take offense, I am using your response to help explain the issue that could present itself to a steward. To ME, a smokey cream is going to be a gray color. If I see that on papers, that is what I am going to looking for. So how does the steward handle it when the papers state smokey cream and a white horse is standing in front her? Yes, having the Geno and Pheno on the papers would be awesome. but probably not going to happen.

 

[Songcatcher]

I have a mare that is registered as Bay. She is Black as Black can get. In certian light she does have a bit of a rusty color in her flanks. She also has scatered white hairs on both sides of her nose and now in her flanks. Her mother is a Silver Dapple and her dad is a Buckskin. Would you say by the discription Bay?

It is quite possible that the foal coat at the time of registration did appear Bay.

". My grey is a "black".

Again, very likely that that is what the foal coat looked like.

Yes, having the Geno and Pheno on the papers would be awesome. but probably not going to happen.

I agree, until an accurate SNP test is developed that will test all known colors, modifications, dilutes, and patterns in one test at an affordable price and the registries require it as they now do DNA for breeding animals. I am hoping that will happen.

 

[sdmini]

I believe that what a horse appears to be should be what they are listed on the papers. Yes genetically accurate information could clear up what the horse could produce but the color is listed for identification purposes, same as markings.

If at some point in time the registries can list genetic info as well I believe that it should be there but only if they have a genetic test to back up their assumptions.

 

[Dontworrybeappy]

a horse's ACTUAL color *IS* it's genetic color!

Period! Nothing else it can be!

As has been said before, even a "visual" color can change radically from natural coat to bodyclipped coat - also from season to season, or from year to year (greys and appys, particularly!)

Not only that, but individual people "see" colors differently... ie: some people swear that one shade of chestnut is "sorrel" while another is "liver" - but they are all chestnut.

buckskin, dun, amber champagne - all pretty similar colors to layman's eyes.

Personally, I don't want to rely on an observer's OPINION of what color my horse is. Therefor, I rely on their genetic color. Genetics is science... fact... not opinion!