Actual color versus Genetic color

[Minimor]

IMO the true color of the horse is the color that the horse IS when it is standing in front of me. Please please PLEASE do not take offense, I am using your response to help explain the issue that could present itself to a steward. To ME, a smokey cream is going to be a gray color. If I see that on papers, that is what I am going to looking for. So how does the steward handle it when the papers state smokey cream and a white horse is standing in front her? Yes, having the Geno and Pheno on the papers would be awesome. but probably not going to happen.

Personally I want the horse's true genetic color to show on the papers. It's nice to be able to look at a pedigree and see what colors there are so that you can accurately figure out where a specific color or modifier gene came from...

Just because to you a smokey cream should be a gray color doesn't mean it is so! In some cases it can be impossible to distinguish smokey cream from perlino or cremello without testing. Why should someone have their smokey cream registered as cremello just because some steward or measurement official is going to think that's what it is???

Frankly, if I were to look at the papers and they said the horse is a black frame overo and listed his markings as a blaze face and I looked at the horse and saw he was black with a blaze face and no pinto markings on his body I wouldn't question the fact that it is the same horse--because I know that a horse can be frame overo even if it doesn't have any white markings on the body...or for that matter no white at all other than a few white hairs on its face...

 

[Shadows Fire]

I too think that the gentics are what should be on the papers. The markings won't change-well perhaps a little bit with appys. LOL But the genetics are what they are. Even though its hard to tell sometimes. Perhaps they ought to have a box not only for height but also for color in case they are not the same color they looked at birth when they are measured for the permanent registration. And greys need to have their base color listed.

Course then if there is any problem with knowing just what color they really are you can test for them.

Course then I don't know much about the miniature registries-yet.

 

[Knighthawke]

I have a registered palomino gelding that I KNOW is a silver buckskin but of course they wouldn't register him silver buckskin. So even if you want to put the right color sometimes the registry doesn't allow you to.

Barb

 

[targetsmom]

I think it would be great if both genotype and phenotype could be listed on papers, especially in the case of grays and/or pintos. If a horse tests positive for LWO - no matter what color he is phenotypically - it might save some heartache if it showed on the papers. And if LWO+ then he should also be listed as "pinto" even if he appears solid. Ditto if he tests positive for tobiano (not sure about sabino because the Pinto Association might not recognize that).

In the case of grays, we have a HZ for black (EE), silver bay frame overo (LWO+) that just shows "gray pinto" on her papers. That sure hides a lot of very useful information. That was how I knew Max could not be sorrel even though that is what he appeared to be phenotypically. And he is also LWO+ that will not be apparent at all on his permanent papers.

But I agree, it is probably not going to happen.

 

[Dona]

I too think that the gentics are what should be on the papers. The markings won't change-well perhaps a little bit with appys. LOL But the genetics are what they are. Even though its hard to tell sometimes. Perhaps they ought to have a box not only for height but also for color in case they are not the same color they looked at birth when they are measured for the permanent registration. And greys need to have their base color listed.

I agree with this 100%. "Gray" (as in fading gray)is NOT a color....it is a "pattern" of white hairs.

I have never understood why these type of "gray" horses do not have their original "base" colors noted on their registration! :arg!

 

[Dona]

At a show recently, a lady brought up a cute little mare to be measured, looked to me like a silver buckskin or dun. I check her papers - P A L O M I N O -- WHAT?? This mare is NOT Palomino. I asked if I had the right papers as they showed palomino and the mare was clearly not. She smiled and said that yes, genetically the mare is palomino. She was very more versed in the color genetics coding than I, and reeled off the genes involved. That was very interesting, but the fact is that the mare did not LOOK palomino. So how do the officials handle that? It's all well and good to have the genetically correct colors or patterns on the paperwork, but if I look at a horse that looks buckskin but shows pali, solid with a blaze and blue eye and papers say frame overo, whatever and doesn't match the paperwork information, I would be hesitant to accept them.

I had a gelding who in full coat was palomino, but clipped short was a silver dapple. Of course when we went to Nationals, he was clipped in a 15 and had beautiful dapples. Since he was already permanent when I got him, he was registered as a palomino. The steward did not want to accept the papers until I showed him where I had left some hair longer near the mane and his tail V to see the gold color.

IMO registration papers should describe the animal being presented, not necessarily the genetic color. Am I the only one who feels that way?

Your gelding was not a Palomino at all, if it clipped out to look Silver Dapple. It was most likely a Silver Bay. Many of those do resemble Palominos in unclipped coat. But, just because a horse has golden colored hair with light mane & tail, does not a Palomino make.

The Silver gene will only affect black. Palominos have no black for the Silver to show on...they just clip out to a lighter shade of Palomino.

Bays, on the other hand, are a black-based color, and their winter undercoat (close to the skin)is dark. That is why when a bay horse who also has the silver gene (Silver Bay)has it's winter coat clipped....it appears to be a Silver Dapple. What you are seeing is the Silver affect on the very dark hair close to the skin. Once this horse's summer coat grows in, it will be bay again...and some are very light, resembling Palominos due to the manes & tails being light (from the Silver gene).

Not important you say? Well maybe not to some, but to anyone who breeds for specific colors or patterns, it is important to know what these horses are genetically....not just what they appear to be. I've seen more horses misrepresented as Palominos due to the Silver gene, than any other.

While I feel it's good to include a "visual" (phenotype) description of a horse for identifying purposes, I feel we should also acknowledge genotype colors on registrations whenever it is known. I don't feel it should be "required" at this time due to added expenses for owners who may not care...but there should be a box to record the horses' true genotype if it's been tested, and the owner desires.

 

[Miniv]

You said it, Dona (Kickapoo)and very well! And so did Targetsmom.

A description of what the horse LOOKS like is important (along with the photo)....which is phenotype. But if a horse has been COLOR TESTED, there should be a spot on the papers to show what the "genotype" has tested out to be.

Someone also posted that sometimes people either don't care or can't spend the additional money with the registry expenses, so the Genotype "box" on paperwork shouldn't necessarily be required, but definitely a bonus!

 

[ohmt]

Having a section on registration papers for genotype would be AMAZING! So many people do the tests these days that being able to put the results on papers that usually stay with horse forever would be incredibly helpful to buyers. My new palomino Supreme Dream son came with his test results-my friend that I got him from didn't even mention that he'd had any color tests done. Anyway, he was tested as homozygous for agouti which was wonderful to know because my goal in having him was to get a few buckskin foals. Knowing he would always pass on an agouti gene let me know I could breed my black mares to him along with my bay mares to get the color I was looking for.