Advice on 'untraining' a baby

[FurstPlaceMiniatures]

Not looking to start a debate, but I need some serious advice on how to 'un screw up' a parelli horse. He's a 2.5 yr old welshx gelding with unknown history. Looks like a mini dappled Percheron.

Ed is downright aggressive, charged in pasture, was food aggressive in stall, vicious towards men. That I can handle. Aggression is really an easy vice to fix. Fixed it in a few horses. Sorry eddy, you're just not as scary as a 1 ton bull that wants me dead. a 48" crabby pony is nothing.

But, he has zero respect for a whip. Doesn't understand the concept of moving backwards when I get in his space, but when I go to play that 'game' that essentially is smacking your horse in the face with a rope until they back up, he flies backwards with a touch a pressure at most. He dives in in a circle when lunging as soon as I stop driving him forward. He's insanely stupidly scared of lead ropes waving around.

Everyone's advice so far is to pawn him off and quick because parelli flunkies are about impossible to ever fix, but I'm just too honest to do that. I've dealt with all sorts of issues, my other guy I call my super horse was a terror too when I got him, but some 'cult member' did a REAL number on this horse. How do I 'unteach' this? We assume he knows nothing, and have been training from the ground up, but out of curiosity I tried 'playing' the 'games' with him the other day and his quirks were quickly explained by his reaction. He has potential. Cute mover, pretty little

Guy, when he's not being a nut he is friendly and like able.

I'm not at my wits end by any means, but I've never encountered this problem and I'm looking for people who have for advice. I WILL not be using any more parelli on this horse ever again, it goes without saying. I'm not looking to start a war, but jeez is this a tough thing to unteach!

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

I don't know a whole lot about parelli but it seems to me that whatever method is used can screw a horse up if the user isn't really sure of why they do certain things. Its important to know what you are trying to accomplish when you work with a horse. Random chasing is not lunging, throwing ropes in their faces is not training for anything worthwhile.In this case I would start by teaching 2 things. Move away from pressure and be calm about ropes. The rope thing is pretty simple, first be sure the horse knows whoa (or tie him up but be aware he could react badly) and then 'sack him out', that is starting with being some distance off drop the rope on the ground, swing it over your head or whatever, but never address it to the horse. Gradually move closer as he becomes more accustomed to and less reactive to the rope and movement. Eventually you want to be able to flip it across his back and around his feet without him reacting. That could take a long time if he's truly afraid of the rope. The other step is teaching him to move away from pressure from other things. Stand at his head with him on a lead, and press on his shoulder with your hand, lean into him and crowd his space and wait for him to shift. Even if he just tightens his shoulder at first, give him an instant release. As he comes to understand what is wanted he will try a step sideways. Praise , praise , and praise some more. gradually decrease the amount of pressure until you can just point or tap and he will respond. Get him moving well from one side then the other then you can do the same with his hips and finally stand in front of him and ask him to step back. I would leave the backing away until last because he has already shown aggression and you don't want to put pressure on him that may make him want to rear and strike out. I suspect he may be aggressive because he has been confused and doesn't know what else to do (and it probably worked to make the 'pressure' end) Hope that makes some sense and helps a little.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Do you have a round pen to where you can just work him with round pen exercises? Thats the first thing I would do and I would desensitize him to the lead rope and the lounge whip. Start out small just take what you can and desensitize him to the air first, if he is fine with that then just go over the lead rope starting with his back and try to build from there. Once he is comfortable with a good amount of lead rope start going over his hind end, his neck, and his legs. I do eventually go in front and swing it around and over his head but usually I save that later on in his training. It's a good exercise for head shy horses. And same thing with the lounge line and smack the ground with it and make sure you do both sides with everything. Then I would start working on getting him out of your space, starting with hind quarters, backing and then forequarters. It is going to be ugly at first especially since it sounds like this guy is real pushy. Actually in fact what I would do first thing is make a hula hoop around you and make him back out of that hula hoop which is your personal space and you yourself just try and stand there and I don't care if he is moving around just make sure he keeps two eyes on you at all times and once he is relaxed reward him. But to me it sounds like you really need to work on getting him out of your personal space first, which is moving away from pressure, get something in your hands at all time if its just a riding crop its better then nothing but any time you use it always rub him with it so he isn't scared of it. But you got to protect yourself. Once I can move his hindquarters, back him up and then forequarters thats when I start thinking about lounging him. Just don't desensitize him for the first thing you do work him first so that you take some air out of him then desensitize, if you do it first thing he will be to fresh and its not going to be as successful.

Another thing is don't worry what happened to him in the past just think of it as wiping the slate clean and your just starting an unbroke 3 year old, which is pretty much what you have here. Like I said it's going to be ugly at first with him being disrespectful and pushy but once you get some control of him training will get better. He just has to respond to pressure and just reward for the slightest try, but he has to try, but like I said safety first keep something with you at all times and don't be afraid to use it just rub it away afterwards like it never happened.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

The very first thing I would do is take the clip (of any kind) off the lead rope. Use only that one halter and lead. As to respect for the whip? He is not going to have any until he has been "hit" hard enough to get his attention ( you sound like you know what you are doing so I shall not say any more!)

I dislike PP intensely BUT I have to agree that any idiot can mess up a horse and I should like to thank you on Eddies behalf for caring enough to take him on. With his breeding he is going to make some kid a dream pony one day, and he will be big enough to be driven by the parent, as well, so a brilliant all rounder.

 

[poniesrule]

I agree with all of the above. You need to start slow and do "it" right (whatever method is your "it"). My step 1 would be desensitize and help him learn what is a cue to react to vs. what is just happening and doesn't deserve a reaction. Step 2 that would coincide with step 1 would be teaching him boundaries, what is your space vs. what is his space; what is acceptable and what is not. He needs to learn when to move in and when to back off. Step 3 would be breaking it all apart and teaching him to move parts of his body independently (head/neck, fore, each foot, hind etc.). I'm not going to get super in-depth about it all, you can message me if you want to know more about the "how" I would do each. But out of respect, I won't go on & on... I have & still do use the PP methods, and would encourage you to use/modify them to work for you, but I also know that you know what works for you and him, and you need to do what you are comfortable with!

Rabbitsfizz has an excellent suggestion with taking the clip off the rope. That will help the pressure not be quite so high for him & give him a chance to react without such a high level of intensity. Sounds to me like whoever was "training" him was using high pressure from the start. He is reacting to what he assumes will happen. Timing will be your friend, as will consistency. You need to desensitize him to the whip/rope. That means start out with rubbing him with it & stopping and letting him think when he stands still & using whatever reward he likes, petting, praising, just leaving him alone to his thoughts. The second he tolerates it... if he moves while you are rubbing him, keep rubbing until he stops, then you stop & back off and give him a few seconds to think about it. I know you know it won't happen over night. I have a very sensitive boy at home right now, I always start out slow & talking to him while haltering preparing for the task, and do my desensitizing exercises before I really work him. It's not routine, I change it up & am not predictable, but (for example) when I'm grooming, I'm swinging a rope around. When I'm harnessing, I'm letting the traces make scary noises dragging through leaves. It works for me & for my guy.

JMS Miniatures makes another great point.... consider him an unbroken horse. You need to find what works for you two & go with it. Make it clear what the boundaries are and stick to that. Your space is your space. Being able to move his hind & his fore independently will be huge! I also agree you need to keep some sort of aid with you that will make you feel comfortable, mine is my stick. I don't ever go anywhere without it if I'm even slightly unsure of the situation (saved my filly's life when a dog attacked).

Reignmaker is right. Both sides need the same work. Left brained vs. right brained. Reactions vs. considering options. Instant release! Timing! Consistency! Yes!

Don't pawn him off, he's a good looking, smart, confused boy. I personally believe that PP flunkies aren't impossible to fix... but they are impossible to fix by someone who believes cookie cutter methods work with every horse they encounter. I'm no where near the same as my twin... why would I be expected to react the same way in the same situation? My opinions.

Best of luck

, I know you can do it!

 

[disneyhorse]

For your own sanity... Remember in the times he's "being a jerk" that it's not his fault. He is just trying to do what he was told is the correct relationship culture.

Horses are smart and with consistency can learn a new language.

 

[Marty]

Oh those stupid games.....

Only thing I could add is to maybe give him some serious time off before you begin your new plan. Good luck to you.

 

[FurstPlaceMiniatures]

Thanks all! This horse is just, ugh! Definitely isn't fear aggression, that's for sure. It's a 'I have zero respect for you because I've never been made to do anything' aggression. The time he charged me it didn't have a whip, but I made it clear enough that that wasn't going to be taken from me without one. Barn owner didn't have a whip either when he got charged, but he made an impression as well. When he charged my boyfriend, he got away with it because he had no idea how to handle it. All were unprovoked in a smallish paddock. He's smart. He knows who he can pull crap with and who he can't.

I love the suggestion to not use a snap - thanks! I shouldn't say it's a fear of ropes, but he acts insanely stupid around them. Every 'jiggle' has a meaning to him. No. That's not how this works. My body movements have a meaning. That he's totally numb to as well. He gets in your space (which were working on) constantly. And is just super disrespectful at all times.

The end verdict after some consultation was to give him the rest of the winter off. Just work on safety stuff and make him be more respectful. Come spring, put him into 'hard and heavy' work to see if having a job helps.

I just keep telling myself when I got my 'once in a lifetime packer stallion' 3 years ago as a barely halter broke, mentally seriously dysfunctional little creature, he was worse! And he's turned out so well! Hopefully Mr Ed will too!

 

[tagalong]

If his history is unknown, how do you known it was some Parelli "cult member" that created these behaviors? I may not care for the PNH stuff - but you are not supposed to smack the horse in the face with the rope until they back up. Maybe he just belonged to someone who was not very horse-wise… and gave him mixed messages - or maybe he was barely handled and is just over-reacting - and you are ascribing Parelli-esque attributes (or lack thereof) to everything. Maybe his aggression and pushiness had someone else buffaloed - and that reinforced that behavior. I think starting with a clean slate is the way to go - and not assuming that this or that has been done to him.

My Icelandic gelding overreacted to every jiggle or touch on a lead shank when I first got him - and would fly backwards or sideways - and he was not "Parellied" in any way.

Far too often I see people deciding that horses must have been OMG!! ABUSED!! if they are head shy or over-reactive - but some horses are just wired that way naturally.

 

[FurstPlaceMiniatures]

I know parelli pretty well actually. I wanted to like it, I really did. Even went to a parelli show thing at the Harrisburg showplex! But I just couldn't like most of it. I know how to 'play' the 'games,' and he DEFINITELY does too.

I've had about 12 different stories about how this horse's past, none of which I really believe. He's 3 at oldest, this is his fourth home that I know of, and I can guarantee the aggressiveness is the reason for that - that's not a problem, I can fix that. No one has paid for him yet. No, I'm not one of those people that believes this horse was ever abused - in fact I believe he is in need of a good hard attitude adjustment as soon as he gives me the chance to do it. He's too smart though and won't sass me outright! I wrestle with cattle 60 hours a week to pay the bills, a 400lb cranky-pants aggressive pony is nothing to bat an eyelash at compared to a raging 1 ton bull - and he's figured out that I have zero fear of him and no im not just faking it! My body language just screams confidence around livestock because it has to at work. They know.

He's FAR from headshy even after I got him pretty good on for charging me (he knew that discipline had a purpose, if discipline is done right they always know that), but if you jiggle that rope just a touch to play that "game," he throws his head straight up in the air (like the horses that 'play it right') and flies right back. Otherwise, he's super in your pocket to the point of needing to cool it a little. Loves his ears played with and likes to lick things. When he's not being a nut he really is a super fun, goofy, smart, sweet pony!

He does 4 of the 7 games 'beautifully.' It's literally ALL he knows - well, that I've discovered so far. We've treated him as 'untouched,' but I had a hunch and tried that games, and it's evident he's not as untouched as we thought. He's been trained, but with a way I do NOT agree with because of the results it can create (that he's shown).

I fully agree this horse was in the hands of someone who knew nothing - and I wouldn't bet my life necessarily, but i would bet an insanely large sum of money that that person was a parelli 'cult member.' I have no issues with the people that use it loosely, or pieces (heck, I use pieces of it!), but the cookie cutter cult member training and always 'playing,' doesn't work in the least bit for me - and Mr. Ed is a prime example as to why!

 

[BSharpRanch]

I had a horse brought to me a few years ago for driving training. He was a sweet gelding, but someone who watched too much RFD TV "trained" him. If he even thought he seen a white bag he was gone. Oh, yeah, they even taught him a few tricks, but when I askwd the current owner just "what" they taught him, they couldn't remeber. The taught him to do capriolle! Yeah, that would be something that really should have been shared! Took me a while to untrain that "cute" trick, but he hasn't done it since. And the bag thing? I am the biggest bully you ever seen, I tied grocery bags all around my round pen and just worked him as if they weren't there. Then I took white trash bags, adding one at a time to the ground (I would put some dirt in them so they couldn't chase him) and so it went till he would ignore the bags, he still noticed them but was rewarded for ignoring them. He was the funnest little horse!