AMHA and Voting

[RockRiverTiff]

I've read the threads following this year's convention with a lot of interest. Some topics seem to come up every year, and then there are the changes that spark new controversy. One issue that the majority seems to agree on is voting, and that many would like to see a more accessible and widespread process. I asked in one of the threads if anyone was writing their own proposal and got no response. So, I took the initiative and asked Ronnie Clifton how to get the ball rolling. I was very pleased with his detailed response. Much of this information is probably in the rulebook, but for those of you that truly want to make a change, and are ready to start working toward one, here's what he said:

[SIZE=14pt]This may be a little long but here goes.......[/SIZE]

A properly drafted proposal would be submitted to the committee (in this case the By-Laws committee) to be considered and discussed at the mid-year planning committee in June. The way the system is now set up (which I don’t agree with) is all by-law and rule changes are put through the appropriate committee at the mid year meeting and the committee brings them to the Board Of Directors. When the committee presents them they either recommend they go to the general membership or they do not recommend it goes, and in some cases the committee does not give a recommendation. The B.O.D. then votes whether to send the proposal forward to the general membership or not. In most cases the B.O.D. will follow the committee’s recommendation. Another possibility is it can die in committee and never make it to the B.O.D. It is my personal belief that all proposals should go forward and be voted up or down by the general membership and not be stopped by a few before being heard by all, however in my long tenure on the B.O.D. my opinion was not always the popular one.

Back to your proposal. The mail voting is a tuff one and has been tried several times, however each time it has been submitted by very well meaning folks that have made a passionate plea but did not do enough research to cover all of the points of opposition and historically fails from a logistics point. Stumbling blocks are: cost, office impact, accountability, ethics and integrity just to mention a few. I do believe these can be addressed if you are willing to do lots of homework and research before submitting.

1 - You will have to convince the finance committee it can be done in a cost effective and/or self-funding way (this will be a big one).

2 - An office impact study will be needed to show it will not unduly burden the staff. I believe this one should be a fairly easy sale if they really believe in this new “computer wonder program” which should do so much that it will free up a lot of time for the office staff.

3 – The B.O.D. as well as the general membership will have to be convinced that this can be done in a fair and efficient way so that everyone will have the same chance to vote and that it can have security controls in place to assure no one can cheat – vote more than once…..stuff the ballot box…..unethically coerce or influence voters……etc..etc….

This may sound petty and one would like to think it would not be a big concern but let me assure you it is a BIG concern.

I am in favor of some means of allowing every member to vote either by mail or electronically. There are those that say it can’t work but they don’t seem to realize approx. 1/3 of the membership already votes by mail every year (or has the opportunity to) for their regional directors so it obviously can be done. My only real concern with this is everyone having good information and all the facts on issues before they vote. I will say that I have gone to general membership meetings before thinking strongly one way or the other on an issue but after having the opportunity to hear different views and points I may not have thought of, have changed my vote. This sharing of accurate information is my only real concern. For example I have seen times, as I am sure you have, that people have got on forums such as Lil Beginnings and got lots of folks stirred up about a topic but typically only presents one side. Some times these people are well meaning and sometimes not but either way it starts a big stir that could cause folks to vote one way when if they had had all the information may have voted differently. I am absolutely sure our membership is perfectly capable of making good sound decisions if they have the benefit of accurate information and all the information. Accurate information can be just as misleading as inaccurate if you only get part of it.

I am sure that was a lot more than you bargained for when you asked but I wanted you to know some of the problems you would encounter.

To make it work:

1- Do your homework and try to cover all the points the nay-sayers will come up with as to why it won’t work.

2- Get buy in from the finance committee ahead of time by presenting them a plan for how it will be paid for. Printing and postage gets real expensive real quick but one way may be to let people that want to vote pay for their ballots. Five bucks or so would be a lot cheaper than attending the meetings and I think people that really have an interest would not mind covering the cost of the mailings in order to vote. The Internet is always another option.

3- Talk with the By-Laws committee before hand to get help on wording and how to cover their logistics concerns so they don't kill it in committee or not recommend it to go forward.

4- Be available and make sure the committee knows you are available for discussion and editing of the proposal either in person or by phone at the mid-year planning meeting. There has been many proposals that didn’t get out of committee because they didn’t like or didn’t understand the wording and the committee is not allowed to alter it from its original as it may change the submitting party’s intent.

Now for the bad news. For a proposal to be on the docket for the June meeting it has to be submitted before the end of the preceding general membership meeting which means if your proposal was not in prior to the closing of the meeting this past Sunday you will have to wait until next year unless you can convince the Executive Committee to accept it late which probably won’t happen.

Sorry I was so long winded but I feel strongly about the membership having a say and our current system is very confusing and cumbersome but can work in your favor if all the i’s are dotted and the t’s are crossed.

If I can be of further help just let me know!

Ronnie Clifton

So there you have it. Ronnie has been kind enough to lay it out honestly, and even give some suggestions of his own. I have seen many others proposed here on the board. Judging by the passionate response this topic has gotten, I am hoping we can get a dedicated group of people together to do the legwork, the research, and the networking necessary to write a comprehensive proposal. As stated above, the deadline to get this proposal reviewed this year has already passed, but I think if we're going to do this right, we're going to need the extra time. What do you guys think?

 

[Mona]

THANK YOU Ronnie and Tiff!!! This was very informative and I am sure will be very helpful as well!

 

[LaVern]

Thank You.

 

[BeckyG]

Tiffany,

Excellent!

I would be glad to offer any assistance I can provide in developing/writing the proposal.

(I will send you a PM.)

-Becky

 

[HGFarm]

In regards to voting, voting by mail is legal by members but should be done according to Roberts Rules of Order, which covers parliamentary procedure for organizations, corporations, etc....! There is a particular manner in which things are done to make sure no one votes more than once, etc.... and that it is fair. Roberts Rules also indicates how far in advance by law changes are to be submitted, and correct procedure for all this stuff..............

 

[sfmini]

You know, I could swear I have said the same things for the past few years and am never heard. Glad you are willing to listen to Ronnie.

The extra time will be needed for all sides, your proposal will take a good deal of time to put together, then actually carrying it out will take time as well.

Good luck in your efforts.

 

[McBunz]

In regards to voting, voting by mail is legal by members but should be done according to Roberts Rules of Order, which covers parliamentary procedure for organizations, corporations, etc....! There is a particular manner in which things are done to make sure no one votes more than once, etc.... and that it is fair. Roberts Rules also indicates how far in advance by law changes are to be submitted, and correct procedure for all this stuff..............

There must be an easy way to number the ballots. The person voting should also submit their AMHA Number.

and signature.. and maybe be a member in good standing for at least one yr.. This way nobody could buy memberships to change the outcome..

 

[RockRiverTiff]

Becky--you already know how much I appreciate the offer!

Laurie--I heard Robert's Order mentioned at the Convention, and have ordered a book so I can start beefing up on it. Hard to say much in that respect until I understand it better. OH!

You know, I could swear I have said the same things for the past few years and am never heard. Glad you are willing to listen to Ronnie.

The extra time will be needed for all sides, your proposal will take a good deal of time to put together, then actually carrying it out will take time as well.

Good luck in your efforts.

If you have additional information or advice Jody that would be great. I have read many of your posts on the board and appreciate your activism--I'm sorry if you feel like you weren't heard. I asked Ronnie what could be done after reading one of his posts about members making changes. I thought for sure all of these angry members would appreciate having this information readily available. Do you know if copies of previous proposals are available? Or if I can get contact information for the people that submitted the earlier proposals?

"McBunz" I'm glad you dropped into this thread, as I have read through your previous posts and know that you also have an abundance of ideas.

I have some thoughts of my own that I'm going to add in a seperate post, but wanted to thank everyone that has contacted me so far. I thought when I posted this there was going to be a huge response, but maybe everyone's sleeping in today.

 

[Ronnie]

You know, I could swear I have said the same things for the past few years and am never heard. Glad you are willing to listen to Ronnie.

The extra time will be needed for all sides, your proposal will take a good deal of time to put together, then actually carrying it out will take time as well.

Good luck in your efforts.

Hi Jody,

You have said it and I heard you, and I hope you keep saying it until everyone else hears you. Thanks for your dedication and continuing efforts!

Your fellow head scratcher,

Ronnie

 

[sfmini]

Thanks. I realized I had lately just resorted to the Cliff Notes version since I wasn't really heard before.

There are no old proposals around since there have been none submitted in recent years. There has only been a lot of complaining about it but nobody interested in taking action.

Good luck with Robert's rules, that is one big book, and very complex. That is why the AMHA uses a professional parlaminatarian for every meeting. Sorry, I know I spelled it wrong, but you get the idea.

 

[minimomNC]

I know I have seen it several times, it takes alot of work to get a rule, bylaw or whatever passed. Jodi has said it mulitple times, but no matter how you say it, who says it or who refuses to listen, you can't get it passed without the majority vote. Get the proposal in, get it to committee, make it hard to not pass and then make sure you have the numbers there to pass it in membership. All the work in the world won't help if you can't get the numbers to pass it.

I agree with the main reason for not accepting absentee voting and its because you cannot hear both sides to make the determination of what is really good and what isn't. I have also had my mind changed at convention when I thought I knew exactly how I would vote. Then you hear the other side, it happened at this convention. The wording of something can sound one way but mean two or more different things depending on who is reading it. So everything has to be worded carefully. And you have to listen to both sides. I can see what would happen if absentee voting was allowed you would see a post on LB with a poll on how will you vote. Thats not the way to make an informed decision but thats how some people would do it. And that scares me.

 

[Margo_C-T]

I have misplaced my '07 Rulebook and am waiting on an '08 one; can anyone tell me if AMHA operates officially under Roberts' Rules of Order? It is the 'bible' for the goverance/procedural operation of organizations--this because it DOES address all situations. BTW, it is available online. I have it in my favorites list; just google and you will find the web address, I'm sure. Yes, AMHA has 'always' had a paid parliamentarian present; it was always my understanding that she(or at least, it was a she at the conventions I managed to attend)was there to make sure that Roberts' Rules were being adhered to....?

Margo

 

[Magic]

[size=4[/B]

Now for the bad news. For a proposal to be on the docket for the June meeting it has to be submitted before the end of the preceding general membership meeting which means if your proposal was not in prior to the closing of the meeting this past Sunday you will have to wait until next year unless you can convince the Executive Committee to accept it late which probably won’t happen.

If I can be of further help just let me know!

Ronnie Clifton[/size]

Does this mean that the new measuring rule WILL go into place next year, since the deadline is past to submit a new proposal? I've been wondering if it is definitely going through, or if there is a way for it to be "aborted". Thanks for writing all of that!

 

[Al B]

It is my understanding that the organizations' by laws take precedence over RRoO. RRoO comes into play if there is no governing by law. The same lady has served as the parlimentarian for many years. She knows us very well. She gives advice and interpretations of RRoO to the presiding officer but does not rule.

I believe that for the rule not to go into effect next year, the board would have to vote to modify or retract it. A decision that would not be taken lightly. Then, at the next annual meeting the membership would have to vote on whether the boards action was appropriate. If not, then the rule would go into effect. If yes, then the boards decision would go into effect.

That, IMHO, is how I see it.

This is my third year on the AMHA Show Rules committee and we do not indiscriminatly throw rule change proposals out. However, they must be written as a rule with the intent and implications clearly and concisely spelled out. Add explaining text if you wish. They also must be legal, within the bylaws and possible within the constraints of the office staff and the information they have to work with. We have received things like "don't you think we should....." or "wouldn't it be better if we did .....". We can't pass those through.

If there is any doubt, the best way to get your proposal thru the committee is to be there to state your case, explain any ambiguities, answer any questions or agree to any changes that don't materially change your objective. It is not unheard of, it happens at almost every committee meeting. If you can't be there, talk to one of the committee members or someone who will be there to state your case and have your permission to modify your request to meet the requirements.

We don't judge the merit of the proposal, that's for the memebers to vote on but it must be explainable to the membership before they can vote on it.

Backing back out.

 

[user 488]

Is this like putting the cart before the horse, so to speak??

Very much so

! In "other" Associations (and I am not speaking AMHR) they set up committees to DISCUSS and RESOLVE all issues BEFORE something is voted on so this kind of stuff doesn't happen. There is no perfect Registry or Association, but IMHO this whole thing was done A $ $ backwards. Any new ruling comes with a backlash of issues which need to be resolved FIRST.......not as an afterthought.

 

[RockRiverTiff]

Well I'm glad to see this got more activity. I did see that the 1915 version of RROR is public domain now and available online (http://www.constitution.org/rror/rror--00.htm) but the book I ordered also provides some explanatory inlines (which I'm sure I'll need). I have pages of scribbles on this topic now, and have been cutting and pasting comments from other threads. If anyone wants to play devil's advocate about logistics, ethics, etc, that's useful too since we don't want to miss any angles. As a reminder, here are the big issues Ronnie laid out:

1 - You will have to convince the finance committee it can be done in a cost effective and/or self-funding way (this will be a big one).

2 - An office impact study will be needed to show it will not unduly burden the staff. I believe this one should be a fairly easy sale if they really believe in this new “computer wonder program” which should do so much that it will free up a lot of time for the office staff.

3 – The B.O.D. as well as the general membership will have to be convinced that this can be done in a fair and efficient way so that everyone will have the same chance to vote and that it can have security controls in place to assure no one can cheat – vote more than once…..stuff the ballot box…..unethically coerce or influence voters……etc..etc….

This may sound petty and one would like to think it would not be a big concern but let me assure you it is a BIG concern.

To approach the first obstacle (the Finance Committee), the method has to be decided on first, so I can then research cost. Here are three hypothetical methods:

1.) Mail voting. This could utilize McBunz's suggestion that voter registration be mailed with membership renewals. This could also be paired with Ronnie's suggestion of a small fee to cover the later mailing of proposals and ballots. According to RROR, the ballots would be returned in sealed envelopes with the voter's signature.

2.) Internet voting. This would likewise entail a small fee and pre-registration.

3.) A combination of the two.

I feel mail voting alone is going to require the most money, manpower, and security measures. To me, it is the most susceptible to corruption (as it is not in real time) and to misinformation (as it involves no communication whatsoever). But it's also the only method that can unbiasedly incorporate the whole of the membership. Also, as Ronnie pointed out, 1/3 of the membership already utilize this method for electing Directors.

Internet voting. Many people on the forum thought the webcast of this year's Convention might be a precursor to this. On the upside, if the webcast becomes permanent, everyone voting online would theoretically also have access to the arguments and endorsements. Voting could be conducted in real time, and I believe polling would be far cheaper and easier if done via computer (look at the instantaneous results afforded to us here on the forum). I also think if it was done in real time it would be harder to cheat, as only one person could log on from one computer. The downside is software requirements (ie a polling program) and an obvious technology bias. I think it's promising though that as many people watched the Convention online as attended.

A combination. This is a thought I had in the middle of the night, so feel free to shoot it down. I was wondering if AMHA could work with its recognized clubs to set up regional polling sites. This could also require a fee to pay for supplies and a site, though I think even an approved member's home might suffice, as all that would be required is a computer with internet access. Members would be required to present a current membership card and matching ID. Everyone could be provided with a copy of proposals, and with a decent pair of speakers everyone present could hear the procedings of the Convention and even discuss the events amongst themselves. Voting could be done via the computer, or ballots could be collected. Member volunteers could do much of the early tabulations (saving the office staff some work), and the original ballots could be sealed in front of all those attending and mailed in case of a dispute. I know this idea has a lot of bugs, but also think it best resembles the benefits of actually attending the convention. While it does require a lot of work on the clubs' parts, imagine how it would improve club participation!

I would like to know which of these seems like the most viable system, and would be happy to add more. (Should I make a poll?)

Now...I have been looking into other large organizations (AQHA, IAHA, AKC), and they all seem to follow a similar BOD/Delegates/Convention process. So at this point I have no precedence for any of these ideas. If anyone knows of a registry, association, or organization of comparable size and purpose that has a membership-wide voting method for by-laws, please let me know!

I know there are many more issues to cover, but I already have pages of notes and feel that choosing a direction first is going to yield the most efficient results when trying to solve the problems of "cost, office impact, accountability, ethics, and integrity."

Just a little bit of motivation for you guys: The 100 people voting at the convention this year represented less than 1% of the membership.

 

[sfmini]

Mailing with membership renewals won't work as memberships are renewed on an anniversary date which can be any month of the year. So, renewals are spread out through the year now.

 

[RockRiverTiff]

Hi Jody! I might be wrong, but I think McBunz wanted for the registration for voting to be mailed with membership renewals--just a check mark (and a mailing fee?). The proposals and ballots obviously would have to be sent and returned all at once on specified dates.

Edited to say I see how this could still be a problem as the office would need a list in advance. Perhaps voter registration forms could be included in an issue of the World?

 

[Charlotte]

I have always been in favor of remote voting by the entire membership, but this is what really scares me:

our membership is perfectly capable of making good sound decisions if they have the benefit of accurate information and all the information.

Quoted from Ronnie.
"the benefit of accurate information" But on post after post here on LB people said things like they 'didn't take the World magazine', 'don't have time to read the official stuff', 'didn't even know the meeting was being web cast'

So how can we guarantee that the membership is informed if the membership won't make the effort to be informed?

Am I the only one who is really freaked out about the possibility of people voting when they don't have a clue what they are voting for or the repercussions of that vote?

Charlotte

 

[Songcatcher]

I have always been in favor of remote voting by the entire membership, but this is what really scares me:

our membership is perfectly capable of making good sound decisions if they have the benefit of accurate information and all the information.

Quoted from Ronnie.
"the benefit of accurate information" But on post after post here on LB people said things like they 'didn't take the World magazine', 'don't have time to read the official stuff', 'didn't even know the meeting was being web cast'

So how can we guarantee that the membership is informed if the membership won't make the effort to be informed?

Am I the only one who is really freaked out about the possibility of people voting when they don't have a clue what they are voting for or the repercussions of that vote?

Charlotte

Unfortunately that is part of the cost of democracy. I wonder what percent of people really KNOW anything about the candidates they vote for for President?