AMHA and Voting

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Yeah, but Freeland, in our government elections we have political commercials crammed down our throats ad nausium (is that how you spell that?).....you can't get away from it. Our associatin doesn't have the funding for media coverage to force feed information even on a very small scale.

I'm sorry. to me it's very scary.

Charlotte

Ok, I've got it! I'm serious. This isn't a joke.

In order to get whatever is needed to have permission to vote on each issue the prospective voter must take a minimal test which would show they had read or discussed the issue enough to understand what they are voting for.

What about that?

Charlotte
 
Could the repercussions be worse than they are now.. people are talking about leaving AMHA over the

vote of people that knew what they were voting for.. :DOH!
 
I am in agreement with you Charlotte, but as was stated people have the right to vote in the USA and can't even work the hole punch, etc. to vote correctly! And the majority do not read the propositions and honestly the way some are worded it's hard to tell what you are voting for.

I would really love to see a forum for a discussion on the different changes - let people state their opinions/show photos/be persuasive, etc. AMHA to my knowledge knows in June what will be on the ballot in February - so I would think in the 6+ months prior to the meeting those that want to be informed could be!

Also - I hate to see AMHA getting hammered - I use it as that is what is currently being discussed, but AMHR is no better in the way things are done. If anyone forgot the fee increase for farm names that was agreed on at Convention but changed magically over the weekend and enforced the Monday after - no warning, no grace period, nada, nothing, zip!

Neither registry has member representation perfected yet as far as voting goes(I am member of both and have attended both conventions).

Regarding the voting - mailing anything with a renewal reminder won't work for lifetime members as we do not get 'reminders'. It is up to me to send in my $$ for the World, and I wouldn't support the expense of a mass mailing for voting.

It's a big task - good luck with it Tiff!
 
Am I the only one who is really freaked out about the possibility of people voting when they don't have a clue what they are voting for or the repercussions of that vote?
Well, I know I am sure freaked out by the voting of and successful rule change made at National Convention this year when the people there did not have a clue what they were voting for or the repercussions of that vote.

If this was not that case, then maybe someone that was in attendance can explain why there so many rocks left unturned.
 
Mona, all I can tell you is (I wasn't there...on mare stare) Frank's 'take' on this, he was there, was that this was an effort by the members in attendance to have a set point for measuring to make it harder to cheat on show measuring....you know, the last mane hair cheating.... What I remember from watching the web cast which was breaking up at that time.....the top of wither measuring was voted down and this bottom of wither measuring proposal was then the only game in town.

Frank's feeling was it might not be the perfect solution, but was an effort by those members there to make it harder to cheat at shows....whether that will be the result or not....who knows, but his feeling was that was the reason for support of the proposal. As you know, the show cheating has been a MAJOR issue for several years now with all kinds of proposals offered to correct it. I honestly think there was little/none of the 'I can get my over horse in now' going on like so many here feel was the case.

Charlotte

p.s. Frank and I just tried the bottom of wither measuring on a bunch of horses here....brood stock and show conditioned.....I was shocked that it made so little difference....from none to 1/4" in most cases. One 3/4 " shorter and one 1/4" taller.
 
I measured mine last night too.....rough measurements, but was easy to tell that ALL of mine will measure shorter....anywhere from 1/4" to a full inch!
 
but was an effort by those members there to make it harder to cheat at shows....
Since I don't show maybe I shouldn't comment but, for heavens sake, if this was done to stop cheating just put some teeth into it when people do cheat! It would surely be easier and more effective to insure that those people who do the measuring do it legally than to totally change the standard for every AMHA registered miniature horse out there.

Just the opinion of someone who's tired of seeing the world change (laws, rules, etc., in all walks of life) just because people refuse to insist that the rules that exist are followed.
 
This rule is not just about those that show. Last I heard AMHA is not a registry that lets non show horses be as tall as they like and only show horses measure in. Of course that is what happens sometimes we all know that but it is not what they strive for nor claim to be. I find it amazing that the few people who are for this new rule seem to be the only ones whose horses measure about the same. The rest of us easily find 1/2 inch to over an inch difference
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I personally don't understand why everyone says that membership voting from home is not do-able it would have to go thru plenty of channels and make sure all the pit falls were worked out. Yet with this rule none of the pit falls were worked out. No one even thought to discuss the horses that were turned in that will now measure into AMHA at the new lets pretend this is 34 inches rule.

No one had a plan in place to help or reduce the breeding of now legally AMHA horses that are well over 34 inches and the off spring they produce. Not one mention of how the honest people will see this as a slap in the face from the registry they choose to use integrity in.

Whole thing is just well now to me that is scarier then everyone having a chance to vote!!!
 
Mailing with membership renewals won't work as memberships are renewed on an anniversary date which can be any month of the year. So, renewals are spread out through the year now.
It would not be hard to see to it that all renewals are done at the same time..

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It was changed to anniversary dates to ease the burden on the office since stallion reports are due at the beginning of January and the office was buried between those and renewals. Then, you had to deal with pro-rating of membership fees, and increased expense updating the roster for the magazine.
 
Then would it be possible to include a ballot in the Dec. MHW and see that all members receive this issue.

I read somewhere that even Life members receive one free copy of MHW each year.
 
No, lifetime members do not receive a free issue.

IMHO, that is a personal choice where the lifetime member chooses to NOT receive what is defined as the official source of information for the membership, so, if they want to receive a ballot, pay for the magazine. JMHO.
 
IMHO, that is a personal choice where the lifetime member chooses to NOT receive what is defined as the official source of information for the membership, so, if they want to receive a ballot, pay for the magazine. JMHO.
As a lifetime member, it is MY OPINION, that I should not be forced to pay $45. a year, to receive infomation that I...AS a paying/paid MEMBER, is REQUIRED TO HAVE.

Is NOT our AMHA website not supposed to be our souce of information...along with the postal system???

JMHO...
 
Mona, all I can tell you is (I wasn't there...on mare stare) Frank's 'take' on this, he was there, was that this was an effort by the members in attendance to have a set point for measuring to make it harder to cheat on show measuring....you know, the last mane hair cheating....
Charlotte, I understand the issue with the cheating, BUT, if there is cheating going on so badly and so often and so unbelievable that people feel the only way to stop it is to change measuring methods, we as a breed association are in sad, sad shape.
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There are rules in place for measuring, ENFORCE them! There are rules in place for taking disciplinary actions...ENFORCE them! Don't create new rules to cover the old ones up! Why give in to it? Why make the rules and then not enforce them? Why does such a longstanding organization feel the need to change measuring methods to avoid facing and dealing with the current cheating problems!

What I remember from watching the web cast which was breaking up at that time.....the top of wither measuring was voted down and this bottom of wither measuring proposal was then the only game in town .
I have bolded in your text the point here that I want to reply to. THAT pretty much says it all. That is NOT a good reason to change from the current measuring method to the base of the withers. It's like vote for this or nothing at all....it could have been left as is, so I personally don't feel it was the only game left in town.

p.s. Frank and I just tried the bottom of wither measuring on a bunch of horses here....brood stock and show conditioned.....I was shocked that it made so little difference....from none to 1/4" in most cases. One 3/4 " shorter and one 1/4" taller.
So using even the 1/4" to 3/4" taller you found on your horses, if a horse measures 34.25" or 34.75" and owner, in his honestly turned in those papers for their "over" horse with the current measuring methods, the new method would allow that over horse to be IN...contrary to what the AMHA has always stood for, and boasted about.
 
The problem is, that none of the 3 measuring methods will eliminate cheating, so why change?

I have to say it does give us an advantage, or breathing room as we have a stallion that is very close to 34" and we have to keep his feet closely trimmed. Now, he can grow some heel and we can get better movement from him in driving.

still don't agree with it, but there ya go.
 
No offense to anyone--I know there are many heated issues surrounding this year's convention--but it would be great if we could keep this on-topic, as there are already several threads dealing with the measuring debacle.

On that note, I am going to be forthright and say that I am leaning toward internet voting as the method to be proposed. To me, it poses the most efficient solution to several of the hurdles mentioned: it would be more accurate, time efficient, and cost-effective, and I feel is not as easily manipulated as mail-in ballots. Also, members with the tools and knowledge necessary to vote on-line should also then have access to the proposals posted on the website, and to the Convention webcast (assuming it becomes permanent). Pre-registration could be done through the AMHA website, even from the same page the proposals are posted on. I think this best addresses the concern of "qualified" voters. The obvious argument is that it is technology biased (my computer-illiterate grandmother is vehemently opposed :DOH! ). But it could be said that the current convention is financially-biased, as others pointed out. There are a lot of public and private resources out there to accomodate members serious about having a say.

If anyone else here is vehemently opposed to this method (though obviously we are also biased, since we obviously already can and do use the internet), I would like to hear your arguments.

Also, I have considered the "qualification" concern brought up by Charlotte. I could see minor requirements, like having been a member for a full calendar year, or actually having ownership of a horse. The problem with a written test is bias again. How many of the people that DID attend the convention had a genuine interest in EVERY proposal? Would everyone, including the BOD, be required to take this test? (Can you imagine the chaos if an official failed the test...)

As always, everyone's opinion is appreciated. What's great about this thread is that when someone disagrees, it actually helps us.
 
I wouldn't support the expense of a mass mailing for voting.
It isn't going to cost any more to mail out a ballot than it has for each of the (so far) THREE mailings that I have received since sending in my properly done paperwork, and I still don't have my horse's papers.

When we send in our stallion reports, and/or any other paperwork out in December-January, we all get an Invoice anyways...it costs nothing more to send a ballot with it, than the cost of printing the ballot. For those who are not breeders, OR lifetime members who do not subscribe to the MHW, then the registry may suffer the expense of a separate mailing...which I am sure, is minimal.

OR...to make this even easier for all, have the ballots printable...on the AMHA site, and leave it up to the members to print it off, and mail it in. Individual votes would then be sent to our area Directors, where they would then be counted by each Director, and ready to tally at the General meeting. If a membership # was required...then there should be no problem.
 
Well, MY honest opinions include these:

That EVERY organization like the AMHA has an obligations to its members, who have PAID FOR the rights that membership confers, to see to it that ALL vital member information is available WITHOUT ADDITIONAL cost above that of the membership itself,AND in a timely manner, to all members. In this technological age, that means placing ALL such information on the official website, AS WELL AS in the breed magazine,sending it out via emails to all members who have provided email addresses-and, where necessary, mailing it via the USPS. I am not breeding-likely never will again,and I am not breed showing; does that make my membership and previous LONG years of strong support for AMHA, no longer important nor valid???? When I see an organization I was once passionate in my support of, now taking actions I see as hasty, ill-conceived, embarrassing in the eyes of the world, and very likely, harmful to its own future (and didn't see coming because I don't pay to subscibe to the breed magazine--and which informations apparently wasn't available on the website--is there any proof that it was?)-am I just supposed to keep quiet and slink away? I have 21 years of the MHW-EVERY issue-and all sent FIRST CLASS, paying the extra, stacked in my spare bedroom....but my situation has changed; I have to make hard choices, so I chose not to spend $36 for six yearly issues that take forever to arrive). This means I should just be told 'too bad'; you should be paying for the magazine?????? I don't THINK SO. I fully accept the point that has now been made, and made again--that it IS a member's responsibility to READ what is written on AMHA matters--I agree, in fact--but I also feel it behooves ANY such organization to BEND OVER BACKWARDS to make such information WIDELY and FULLY available--and there is certainly at least some doubt that this was the case recently. Had I seen it, however, I might well have felt as several others, including a committee member, have STATED they did--that they couldn't believe that any horseperson could or would take such an idea(measuring height to the 'base of the withers')seriously!!!!!!!

Additionally--there have been numerous references to how 'base of the withers'(where is the scientific justification for there being a reliably identifiable 'place' of this designation??) measurement would 'stop', or 'lessen' or 'fix', or ???- cheating at measurement. If you read the AMHA Rulebook, a very adequate set of rules is already there, regarding measurement; other members have said this, and I will say it again...CHEATING has occurred, and continued to occur, because it has been TOLERATED, and in my own direct experience, sometimes(if not often) ALLOWED and AIDED, by the measurers--and 'starting at' the National level.....Is it bad--Oh, yes! WHY? Because it has INCREASINGLY been tolerated...and it is among the less-endearing aspects of human nature that if law/rule-breaking is 'allowed'-that is, discipline is NOT meted out AS IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE, many will 'push' further and further, AND resent and resist returning to following the rules more and more. You will NEVER 'end' all attempts to cheat, but you can make MUCH of a difference when/if you have the intestinal fortitude, beginning at the top, AND clearly supporting the same at lower level shows, to ENFORCE the rules you already have!!! How can changing from one not-terribly-subjective( if everyone involved is following current rules), out-of-the-equine mainstream, location to measure, to one even more so, POSSIBLY be thought to offer the "answer" to cheating?

Margo

(edited to add parenthesis)
 
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Well, MY honest opinions include these:That EVERY organization like the AMHA has an obligations to its members, who have PAID FOR the rights that membership confers, to see to it that ALL vital member information is available WITHOUT ADDITIONAL cost above that of the membership itself,AND in a timely manner, to all members. In this technological age, that means placing ALL such information on the official website, AS WELL AS in the breed magazine,sending it out via emails to all members who have provided email addresses-and, where necessary, mailing it via the USPS. I am not breeding-likely never will again,and I am not breed showing; does that make my membership and previous LONG years of strong support for AMHA, no longer important nor valid???? When I see an organization I was once passionate in my support of, now taking actions I see as hasty, ill-conceived, embarrassing in the eyes of the world, and very likely, harmful to its own future (and didn't see coming because I don't pay to subscibe to the breed magazine--and which informations apparently wasn't available on the website--is there any proof that it was?)-am I just supposed to keep quiet and slink away? I have 21 years of the MHW-EVERY issue-and all sent FIRST CLASS, paying the extra, stacked in my spare bedroom....but my situation has changed; I have to make hard choices, so I chose not to spend $36 for six yearly issues that take forever to arrive). This means I should just be told 'too bad'; you should be paying for the magazine?????? I don't THINK SO. I fully accept the point that has now been made, and made again--that it IS a member's responsibility to READ what is written on AMHA matters--I agree, in fact--but I also feel it behooves ANY such organization to BEND OVER BACKWARDS to make such information WIDELY and FULLY available--and there is certainly at least some doubt that this was the case recently. Had I seen it, however, I might well have felt as several others, including a committee member, have STATED they did--that they couldn't believe that any horseperson could or would take such an idea(measuring height to the 'base of the withers')seriously!!!!!!!

Additionally--there have been numerous references to how 'base of the withers'(where is the scientific justification for there being a reliably identifiable 'place' of this designation??) measurement would 'stop', or 'lessen' or 'fix', or ???- cheating at measurement. If you read the AMHA Rulebook, a very adequate set of rules is already there, regarding measurement; other members have said this, and I will say it again...CHEATING has occurred, and continued to occur, because it has been TOLERATED, and in my own direct experience, sometimes(if not often) ALLOWED and AIDED, by the measurers--and 'starting at' the National level.....Is it bad--Oh, yes! WHY? Because it has INCREASINGLY been tolerated...and it is among the less-endearing aspects of human nature that if law/rule-breaking is 'allowed'-that is, discipline is NOT meted out AS IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE, many will 'push' further and further, AND resent and resist returning to following the rules more and more. You will NEVER 'end' all attempts to cheat, but you can make MUCH of a difference when/if you have the intestinal fortitude, beginning at the top, AND clearly supporting the same at lower level shows, to ENFORCE the rules you already have!!! How can changing from one not-terribly-subjective if everyone involved is following current rules), out-of-the-equine mainstream, location to measure, to one even more so, POSSIBLY be thought to offer the "answer" to cheating?

Margo
Excellent post!!
 
I think the recent vote to approve this measurement change… is exactly why we need a new process so the members-at-large have the opportunity to vote. It seems to have been an eye-opener for us all… as to how the current process really works.

Now, I think the current process has worked in the past. Because, to my knowledge, there has not been an “uprising” like this before. (But of course the fact this a such a major change that effects us all so very significantly… has a lot to do with it.
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But, even though this process has worked …… times change.

For me, the time has now come to move forward with a new approach.

I admire Tiff for taking this step to address the Real Underlying Issue of what has happened with this recent vote to change how our horses are measured.

The issue is:

1) The overall membership does not feel there was ample notification of the proposal, and

2) The overall membership does not have a means to vote. (Obviously most members cannot travel to be on-site for voting.)

It is our association, and I think most folks want to be participants in the decision-making. There are definitely challenges to implement a new process. Very Importantly.... There needs to be a process that works for members, the BOD and the Staff of AMHA.

For me…. Taking advantage of the technology available for us today..... is the way to go. This is the age of technology. It can be intimidating (for sure). But it is technology that allows the whole world to come together. (Just look at this forum!! How wonderful it is for us all !! )

Certainly there can be a lot more info on the AMHA Web Site regarding upcoming proposals. And, I think AMHA on-line discussions about upcoming votes would be most valuable … in fact, even as valuable as in-person discussions. (This will not ensure everyone is knowledgeable about a proposal, but there is not more that can be done beyond documenting and discussing the merits. )

In terms of voting…… I think Internet voting is the best way to implement a new voting process. Postal mail voting is expensive and is an on-going expense every year. There have been some good ideas suggested which could definitely reduce the mailing expense. But there are other costs involved. Most significant is the time required to manually collect, count, manage & secure the ballots. (Most of us work – or have worked - and as my Mom always said: Time is Money.) We have to consider the impact of managing a manual voting system. Also…. No matter how hard folks try…. Human error will occur.

There are many applications available for on-line voting. There is of course the up-front effort/resource to implement, which I "think" could be very reasonable...... And, on-line voting is almost instantaneous…. and does not require human-counters.

There are Many/Many considerations to make it work. I am not trying to over-simplify. But we all use the Internet. (And most of us have even participated in an on-line poll.)

IMHO, Internet is the way to move forward… both for information distribution and for membership voting in the future.

(That leaves only a few simple things to do…. Figure out a plan….. Get a proposal written, submitted & approved….. and doing all the work to make it happen.
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:DOH!
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