AMHR/ASPC Cross Enter at SAME SHOW Proposal

[JMS Miniatures]

It has been discussed here before and probably should again before Convention.

Add or Delete: Add to AMHR; Classic sections

AMHR: AMHR horses that are also registered ASPC may show AMHR and ASPC at the

same show.

ASPC: ASPC horses that are also registered AMHR may show ASPC and AMHR at the

same show.

Effective Date: 12/01/2012

Committees Referred: AMHR Classic Rules

If you feel strongly for or against this be sure to attend both AMHR and ASPC Committees as I believe it will be presented to both.

The way I see it is this yes it may bring in more money to shows, but at the same time I can see shows be added a day. It would be more of a advantage to own a AMHR/ASPC pony when you can enter in double the classes and that includes double the points. Which in turn would help more so for the AMHR/ASPC breeder and continue to take away business for the breeder who does not breed for ASPC papered ponies, which in AMHR you see the AMHR/ASPC pony continues to be more popular in the show ring. They say that this might bring in more interest for ASPC to grow and gain more exhibitors for Congress which they do need since this year's Congress lost significant money and the President himself said in the Journal that the Congress numbers don't look favorable. But in turn you don't have to qualify for Congress like you do for Nationals. Also as of right now it's not like once you show as a Miniature you cannot show as a Shetland. You have a choice as to where you show that pony in and I feel that since you do not need to qualify to show at Congress I don't see a reason why to put this rule into place. You can still show at both Congress and Nationals and you can still show that AMHR/ASPC pony at one show as a Miniature and the next show as a Shetland, no one is stopping you from making that choice. If you want to get a HOF for that pony say in Halter as a Miniature and as a Shetland then show him/her as a Mini and once you get that continue to show as a Shetland. It's just allowing it to be done quicker then you would currently and would have to continue to show. Want more Shetlands to show at local shows then allow qualification for Congress say just one show, make those Shetlands show at least one show then I would be more in favor for this rule to pass.

 

[Maple Hollow Farm]

I also dont see any reason for this rule to be passed because of the reasons you state. When will the committee meetings be held at convention?

 

[JMS Miniatures]

AMHR committee is on Thursday 11/8 at 8:30 AM

Classic committee is on Friday 11/9 at 8:30 AM

 

[disneyhorse]

I personally don't see those as disadvantages.

I would love the option as it would make more opportunities for someone in our registry to show and get involved.

 

[LaVern]

I am very opposed to this. I hope it does not pass.

 

[Minimor]

Here are a few thoughts...

First the legal consideration.  We allow ASPR who are also ASPC to show both ways at the same show.  Are we not descriminating against ASPC/AMHR horses by not allowing them to do the same?  We issue them sets of papers for two different breeds yet we prohibit them from showing as one of those breeds at shows that offer both breeds.  Would this stand up in court if someone choose to challenge it?  

The cross entering rule as it stands right now was passed back in 1996 at the General Membership meeting.  The reasoning for passing it was that the AMHR people wanted to keep the ASPC ponies from showing in AMHR.  It is quite obvious that the rule had the opposite effect.  All it managed to do was prevent ASPC/AMHR horses from showing as Shetlands.  If you had to choose with your ASPC/AMHR horse which would you choose?  How many of you have choosen to show exclusively AMHR because that is where you points are after you have finished qualifying for Nationals?  Many of these horses would also show ASPC if they could do both at the same show thus boosting the ASPC class numbers that this cross entering rule has hurt.  

Many small local shows would be helped by removing the prohibition on cross entering as well.  They would be able to collect two sets of entry fees for one animal like they do for those showing ASPR and ASPC at the same show.  Shows where the ASPC classes are in danger of being cut because of lack of entries might gain enough entries to keep the ASPC classes.  Shows that would like to add ASPC classes but need entries in order to do so would also benefit.  

Ultimately this isn't an AMHR issue, it is an ASPC issue because it isn't the AMHR this rule has hurt, it is the ASPC.

More to come ...

 

[LaVern]

YaSir, I think you pretty much nailed it. When you are owned by someone you don't don't get to make the rules, no matter how it is going to affect you. You just beg to the master and take what you get.

 

[Belinda]

"Ultimately this isn't an AMHR issue, it is an ASPC issue because it isn't the AMHR this rule has hurt, it is the ASPC."

Really ???? How can you say that ! If it involves the Mini side of shows it does effect the AMHR and they should have a say .. And I believe that there are many that think if it passes then it will HURT the AMHR division and it is their right to believe that , the same as your right to think the other way ..

do you Holly have mini's / ponies that you want to show in both divisions at the same show If this passes ? I personally would not want to over use my horse by showing two different divisions at the same show, You also got to think of all the horses that will end up being put in 15 or 20 classes and worked to death just because they can.. !!

And yes I know the ASPR can cross enter , but those folks usually are driving and I hate to say but they don't over enter their ponies like some of the Mini are .. example if a ASPR is a Road Pony that is all it is entered in they don't drive them as Pleasure Ponies and don't Jump or do obstacle ,

So really I do believe this is a proposal that does effect AMHR horses ..

 

[mdegner]

Oh I just bet I know where this one came from........

What LaVern says....

 

[Minimor]

Belinda, I'm so sorry was I not supposed to comment on this either? Tsk.

No as a matter of fact I do not have any double registered horses that I want to show both ways. I don't have any double registered ones at all at this point in time. I might have one in a couple years but would I show him AMHR? Quite possibly not. I like showing ponies--minis, not so much. So, my above post was not at all self serving.

I would never over use a horse at a show. I would rather take a horse out in the ring 3 times and have him brilliant all three times than to take him out in 10 classes and have him dull and exhausted in the lady ones. That is actually my objection to this rule change proposal--some people DO overuse their horses if the classes ate available...though they deny doing it.

For sure there are a number of shows where the AMHR classes wouldnt be affected at all by this rule change -- the double registered horses already show AMHR-- so the only effect of allowing them to show both would be in the pony classes. The AMHR exhibitors wouldn't notice any difference at all in their classes.

 

[LaVern]

This is the story of an old American Family named the ASPC Family, their first child being the American Shetland Pony. From the beginning the new ASPC Family Parents were wonderful. They watched their children grow and nurtured them though hard and trying times. Always being careful that they did not stray or go down the wayward path. For years and generations they basked in the glory of their children and grand children and great grandchildren.

As things sometimes go, in all families, some of the children went astray and started mingling with those of different, would you say attributes and attitudes. Well, as it does happen in all families, these wayward children begat children of their own. Some of these ill conceived offspring were very athletic and some were very beautiful and hard to not love.

So, what were the Parents to do? Well, even though these illegitimate descendants were different and not a good example of family planning , they did what all good parents would do. They opened their arms, took them in and set another plate, at the table. They were legally adopted and granted all family privileges.

During this time also, there was a group that perhaps went too far down the crooked road and started cavorting with a particular short bunch. Before you knew it there were more illegitimate offspring with shorter limbs and rather a docile demeanors. And wouldn't you know it, they too wanted to be part of a family.

Well, this is were things get a little fuzzy. For some reason these little guys, some of which also had documented parentage were not quite so welcomed into the Family.

The Parents did however agree to let them join the family as foster children. They would be their foster Parents.

These stubby little illegitimate fellows were so grateful to have a place to call home that they readily agreed to blindly follow all family rules without question and forfit all revenues that they would bring into the family.

Things were a little shakey the first few years, within this newly extended family, as there wasn't much guidance and these foster children were so prolific that it was hard to keep up with them, but because there were so many or them and they were in such great demand, the family grew richer.

But, even with the money coming in, the legitimate family heirs became a little envious of these outsiders. It seemed that everyone loved them and they just loved to be in the public eye.

It wasn't long before the sibling rivalry began, The real kids wanted some of the attention, so they went to the Parents and asked if they could be come foster children too.

"Well of course you can" We love all our children the same. Was the parents response.

Then the legitimate children, said, "Well we don't look like they do, could you tell people that everyone should look like us."

"Well, of course we can. We want you all to be comforable with your appearance." Was the Parents response.

Next the real children began feeling a little self conscious of their height, so they asked their Parents not to put much emphasis on height.

The parents adopted a politically correct policy of, 'How tall do you want to be?'

Now the litgitimate children say, "We want to be 'Real Legitimate Children' sometimes, and 'Foster Children' sometimes, all at the same time. "Can we do that?"

I don't know what the Parents will say.

 

[Crabtree Farm]

Does anyone know of any person that has a dual registered pony that goes to a AMHR/ASPC show and only shows Shetland?

 

[Karen S]

Tina,

Mike and Lisa Strassle owns with Belinda "Harry". Harry's original owner, Larry and Debra Laramore bought him as a baby. He was shown many, many years as a Shetland only until he was old enough to be measured in as a miniature. He is now double registered and they still show him as a Shetland at shows and then at another will show him as a Miniature. He's been driven the past two years at mini nationals by both Lisa and Chelsea Vann. They still have to pick and choose "how" they are going to show now.

Something else....we have (2) Two Standard of Perfections here. Two different set of rules. You still have the razoring rule and a shoeing rule that affects this as well. You razor the heck out of your horse as a miniature but want to show as a Shetland, sorry can't do, but you have shoes on that pony. Now what are you going to do? BTW, this came up at the 1999 convention, I was there and it was nasty then when members were standing up shouting at each other then. It wasn't the Shetland people, but the Miniature folks that were complaining.

Yes, if this does pass, I also see some of these ponies being worked to death. I happens in my area and I see it in others as well.

 

[Crabtree Farm]

The dual registration didn't take effect until he was hardshipped. So that is only 1 pony. But as you said they had to pick and choose what they wanted to show him as.

As to the rules, I don't razor my mini and he wins. I show some shetlands without plates at they win. God gave them talent not to need plates. So if I had a dual registered pony and abide by the razor/plate rule, I still see that I should have all rights to show.

My triple registered shetland that I leased out this year showed through all three divisions at Congress. He was fine. He was not overshown, nor was his health compromised even in the heat of Tulsa. But he had the right to show and he did.

As for the mini people being upset, they already are, the shetlands are already winning the AMHR Nationals, heck a shetland won AMHA World.

This proposal will not keep people from showing AMHR, but would allow them to also show ASPC which in turn will give us healthier competition in the shetland classes.

 

[Karen S]

Tina,

It's not the Shetland folks, but those miniature folks who are wanting this that do own those double registerd. As far as I'm concern, bring them on. I look at it from a financial point for shows, bring the numbers up in the Shetland classes. I want the revenue for our club....but...I will tell you....when someone does an opps...razored their dual registered horse, has paid for those Shetland classes and then comes to a show manager and wants a refund....sorry charlie ain't happening. There are a lot more people out there sitting with buckets of water, razors and shaving cream between their legs going after their horses head in the miniature show field. No I don't razor, don't like it never have. I do just fine like you in the show ring without it, but you can't stop it. Same with shoes it's a piece to this puzzle. The AMHR rule states "No Shod horses on AMHR show grounds", you still have two different standard or perfections. As far as over use, again you and I understand the brilliance of a Shetland and what it takes to for them to give their very best in the show ring. How about those families who have two or three of these double registered guys, they show halter, they show, hunter, they show jumper, they show liberty, they show versatility, they show roadster, they show country pleasure driving.....as a miniature, then turn around and show hater, show hunter, show jumper, show liberty, show roadster, and show country pleasure driving as a Shetland. As I've stated...seen it happening here in our area (over showing a miniature) and know it happens in another area with current members. This will happen at the same show and now you have an over worked very tired pony that has lost it's brilliance. It's a bit different when we can show in a couple of classes and call it a day. Congress is a different story...we may show in one class each day keeping our ponies fresh. With our double registered ASPC...Classics & Moderns...that CAN cross enter...because they are from the same Shetland linage...where miniatures is just a height registery and they come from not only Shetlands, but harnessbreds (full size), quarter horses, arabs...etc. that where hardship years ago before the closing of the books to "outside" blood of unknown factor. Now in order to get in as a miniature they must hold Shetland papers, AMHA or Falabela papers...Falabela are appys, which cannot be in the Shetland blood lines.

 

[Karen S]

Cross enter from ASPC to ASPR

 

[Crabtree Farm]

Karen, if they want to play, they have to follow the rules. If they ooops razor a face, you get DQ and forfeit your entries.

For those who want to overuse their horses, shame on them. Not sure what the answer would be. Perhaps every show should have a vet on call, if someone wants to protest that an animals is purely exhausted, they protest with a $XX fee, also pay the vet call. If sustained, animal has to be pulled from competition for rest of show and that owner pays the vet call. Now this is just a thought. But there are a few ponies that can go through multiple classes and handle it.

But back to my original thought, how many ponies will this affect. . . 1 - 10 - 100? The dual shetlands will typically show mini for better competition/points/fame.

 

[LaVern]

Everytime you make it more advantageous to breed, own and show the doubles, you make it harder for me and others like me, to survive. Why would anyone want to buy a Straight Miniature Horse, when there are so many advantages to owning a double. Heck they are so great that you get to show them twice.

But times change. Maybe us little Foster Children have served our purpose. Maybe there are enough of the doubles to put on shows of their own.

It seems real dumb of me to support an event or an association that tells the public that I am less.

 

[Karen S]

Renee what is your point? You always go off in another world when trying to relate to something? Help me here. Just use plain english...I know you love your "straight" miniatures as you call them, but give me your reasons why or why not. Not a story. Your breeding program has done great through the years and still is. Thanks.

 

[LaVern]

Good Morning Karen. I don't know why I ramble on so. I guess I just like to ramble on.

My point is that I can no longer honestly give customers any reasons why they should buy a Straight Miniatre Horse when there are so many advantages to buying a double registered horse, and you can flop a Shetland or an AMHA horse in anytime for a hundred bucks.

Last year they told us that all you needed was a short Shetland and 100 bucks and you had a AMHR horse. They said, that all you needed was a AMHA horse and 100 bucks and you had an AMHR horse. That sure made me proud, after 25 years of trying to do everything right.

If you have noticed a couple of the larger AMHA farms are selling out. All of these say AMHR eligable. None of these bothered to double them.

Had we said, get these guys in, because as of 2013 it is going to be 1000.00 a horse, they would have come in. That would have made me proud. My horses papers were worth 1000 bucks. No one seems to place any monitary value to our Straight horses and yet they are the one set of papers that make the Shetland Pony more valuable.

I don't feel that our Association places any value on the Straight Miniatre Horse, other than the fee they bring for paperwork.

While I think it is great that those that love the Short Shetlands find as many ways to get them out there as they can. Why shoud I help provide a place to tell me that they are better and worthy of more. I wish that our Registery could give us something to hang on to.

Anything - throw me a bone. Please. We are dropping like flies up here.