AMHR Judges

[LaVern]

I hope this doen't turn into another my measuring story thread. What I wanted to talk about is Judging and Judges abilities as far as determining height.

This years coverage of our National Show has been so informative to so many, that have no desire to ever go to Nationals, and prefer to stay home and love and sometimes breed wonderful little miniature horses, and play by the rules. Up until now, unless you went to the show it was hard to understand the delemma.

[SIZE=10pt]But, there it was. In living color. [/SIZE] I don't know how many that have called and said, " Holy Moly, some of those horses were huge." Some said," I can't believe the judges picked those tall horses." Personally I don't feel it was any worse than usual.

But, there it was for all the world to see. Which horses the Judges picked in the tall divisions. And which people and trainers lead them in.

Maybe it is time the judges,along with the breeders and the exibitors and the stewards and the trainers all have to be accountable , because the people are watching.

 

[Minimor]

because the people are watching

But Renee, so many of the people swear up and down that the horses really AREN'T too tall. They're just high headed. Or they're slim and long legged. Or something else that just makes them LOOK taller.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not actually arguing with you! I'm just repeating the excuses we get on here so often, every time the measuring problem comes up.

Sorry, but I've got small horses and I've got tall horses. I've got short legged horses and long legged horses, I've got upheaded horses and I've got lower headed horses. Some look smaller than they actually are, and some look taller than they actually are...and their deceiving appearance isn't necessarily related to their head carriage, it's just the over all build. However, if I put two horses out together, a taller, lower headed one and a smaller, very upheaded one...anyone seeing them out there together is going to be able to point out which one is taller.

Do I think that judges should be required to use height as a judging criteria, and not place one that is too tall? Not necessarily. That's a tough call. Considering that the steward is supposed to measure them all in and ensure that each horse is in the correct class, the judge shouldn't have to consider whether or not a horse is over the size limit for the class. If there is a horse that quite obviously is up to the judge's waist band at the horse's last mane hair--and yes, that sort of rough measurement is entirely possible to make!--and the judge knows that any horse that comes up as high as his waistline has to be 42", then yes, I would say that judge should consider that horse "too tall" and not use the horse in his placings. should he actually say that the horse is too tall if he is asked why he didn't use the horse? Probably not! "Off type" is a good reason--that can cover a multitude of things. So does "he doesn't fit my picture overall of what the ideal Mini should look like". But, if the judge thinks the horse is just that slight bit over, well, then I think it is very hard call for a judge to make. Impossible even.

If I'm out in the ring with a horse that is an honest 37.5 or 37.75 or even 38 and the horse lined up next to me towers over my horse, I'm going to have a pretty good idea that the other horse is over 38

The judge, however, quite probably doesn't know how tall any one horse in the class is and therefore, while he can judge that horse A is taller than horse B, he doesn't know the actual height of horse B, nor of horse A, and therefore he cannot say for sure that A is actually oversize.

Taylor Jo, I have to ask...how many times did you get to measure your horse before you finally got the "right" measurement? You make it sound like it was quite a number of tries that you got?

 

[LaVern]

I agree with you Minimor there are so many individual circumstances. And I am not a good judge of height myself, so I usually call them taller than they are to be on the safe side. It is the Lizzys of the miniature horse world that I am talking about. Very obvious to anyone.

And as far as protesting, it causes so many hard feelings. It shouldn't be so important to win that one puts all involved in a tough spot. I feel that we just have to keep talking about it and make everyone realize that we are all part of the solution.

Let you who have not sinned cast the first stone. Well, I own Lizzy So I hope I don't sound too preachy.

And on the brighter side at least now you do not hear anyone bragging about being able to get them in. Or at least I have not heard it lately.

 

[Boinky]

I've said this before.... I think judges should have the right to question the height of a horse in the class and there should be a stick handy at all times for any judge to use. If that judge feels a horse is over (blatantly so especially) they should be able to whip out that stick and measure that horse. it should NOT be left up to only a few people to decide and the judge should be able to question it if they feel the job was not done appropriately.

It all boils down to there is no accountability from ANYONE apparently. the registry is not being held accountable for those they hire and promote. is not questioning and reprimanding those stewards (or any person in general) that are allowing it to happen, They make it difficult to protest. You actually have to be IN a class at nationals to be able to protest it... I personally think many bystandards could and should be able to easily make the call and protest it if they feel that horse is over (sure you can still have them put up money which will deter the spiteful protests). it would clean things up significantly if anyone had the right to protest.

It goes right down through the chain

Registry, stewards, trainers/handlers ect. each play a role BUT i truly feel if the registry would make steps to clean up this mess and make people playing in the show world under their rules and regulations accountable it would o a long ways towards solving this problem. Stewards/owners/handlers/ ect that have been caught cheating need to be reprimanded in some way even if it's right down to downright suspension from the registry. Make it public knowlege in the journal those that have been caught and move on with life.

Quite frankly i'm surprised no individual or group of people have legally gone after the AMHA/AMHR for not upholding their own rules. I truly feel it starts at the top by the registry itself (be it amha or amhr) not setting the example to go after and reprimand for things that blatantly go against their own rules. It's happend in other registry's for similar things.

 

[LisaF.]

Boinky

I should have read this thread before I posted my own. You make some EXCELLENT POINTS.

I was trying how to figure some things out to fix things - and really you are right - it needs to start at the top. We already have the rules - we need to enforce them.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

Too funny Renee!! Unfortunately too true as well.

Judges should be held as accountable as stewards when it comes to oversize measuring in. I don't know if there is anything prohibiting a judge asking for a stick and measuring a horse or having the steward measure in the ring, but you know that won't happen. Can you image if they did stick a horse in the ring and then gated it? Talk about an uproar! That would result in either that judge not being invited to judge again, a huge delay with protests or people being more careful about what class/height they're showing in. You'd hope for a good result but it could just as likely go the other way. Remember the AMHA a few years ago when the horse 'shrunk' at the World Show from the height it had been shown at all season?

Most of the horses that I've seen that are 'tall' in the show ring are good at the swan dive or have extraordinarly long manes or ? - as they may measure in but are to even the biggest **** out there can see its much taller than the other horses. It's really evident in AMHA where there is only a 2" variance in each class. I've been in a 30-32" class with two honest 32" horses and the winner was lucky to be pushing the stick at 34" but it supposedly measured in at 32".

As for being able to accurately guesstimate how tall a horse is - maybe not by a photo, but in person next to a horse - they're judges for goodness sake if they can't tell the difference between 34, 37, 40 inches . . . a one or two inch variance is understandable to guesstimate, but 4-6 inches??? I mean I have in our bachelor herd a 37-38" soon-to-be-gelding, he looks gianormous next to the rest of the herd until you realize the next closest horse is under 34" and the majority are in the 31-32" range.