AMHR National Driving Stakes

[Coventry Lane Farm]

We would have stayed for the Driving Stakes classes but we had to leave for home on Sunday due us having to be back to work and its a 24 hour ride to get home from Tulsa which really isn't as far at all compared to most that travel to the Nationals. If they would have had the Stake classes like prevous years on Saturday, we would have stayed and entered. Our horse was a top 5 in the Futurity driving and think we would have had a good drive. We seemed to do well in the driving stakes in previous years and we are not profesionals either.

 

[Sandee]

The primary reason class size was so low for Stakes was because it was held Sunday, and many people needed to pull out in order to be at work Monday morning.

I was fortunate to be able to delay my return to work until Tuesday, so we stayed for Stakes.

We competed in four Stakes classes. In three of the four, we were the only non-trainers in the class. Having Stakes on the final Sunday of the show works if you make your living as a trainer, and you are paid by clients to be there.

Class size will continue to be low if Stakes continue to be held on that final Sunday. As an association, we are losing money by holding Stakes on that Sunday.

...................

Sorry, I don't agree Bob. Stakes have always been on the last day and they have always had a low number of horses. I saw so many people leaving in '08 on the day before Stakes. I'm not sure why. Is it's the extra higher entry fee; or the fact that most of the drivers are Professional trainers and the little guy stands little chance of winning? (wait - sorry I no longer consider you ..your family... part of the "little guys" --you have a large number of horses and you DO, whether you realize it or not, influence what goes on in many arenas. Just because of your numbers you influence others.)

I think a lot of people leave because they feel that they don't "stand a chance".

 

[Yaddax3]

Sorry, I don't agree Bob. Stakes have always been on the last day and they have always had a low number of horses. I saw so many people leaving in '08 on the day before Stakes. I'm not sure why. Is it's the extra higher entry fee; or the fact that most of the drivers are Professional trainers and the little guy stands little chance of winning? (wait - sorry I no longer consider you ..your family... part of the "little guys" --you have a large number of horses and you DO, whether you realize it or not, influence what goes on in many arenas. Just because of your numbers you influence others.)

I think a lot of people leave because they feel that they don't "stand a chance".

Sandee, you're too kind, saying we're not little guys. We have a large number in our family, but we are little guys when it comes to showing against established trainers.

Anyway, Stakes classes have not been on that final Sunday since we began attending Nationals in 2005. And I don't recall seeing a Roadster or Driving class with five or fewer entrants until this year.

Looking forward to seeing you and Cassandra at next year's shows.

 

[Humhill]

I saw so many people leaving in '08 on the day before Stakes. I'm not sure why.

There was a hurricane coming that year. I remember because we had to drive through the edge of it going home. A lot of people had damage back home and had to go ahead and leave to take care of things.

This year, going on Sunday was just too late. It's easy to ask for a whole week off. But to ask off for a week and a Monday, little harder to do. Especially if your employer only allows one person on vacation at a time.

Besides, if you haven't done well in the qualifying classes, there's no point.

The difference between "stakes" and "championship" is this: A stakes class is open to anyone who showed in a qualifying class and places through 6th or 10th (depending on Natls vs local show). A championship only takes the 1st and 2nd place horses and awards Champ and Res. If it was a local show, for a championship, a horse may have to show 3 different times right in a row.

You just can't do this with driving. Even at Nationals. Let's say your horse goes in the qualifying class and a kid runs down the stairs, spooks the horse and they break and the judges see. In the Stakes, the situation would be completely different. Driving is based on performance. Halter is based on conformation. A horse's performance could change from class to class. But their conformation will not. They're not machines, they're living creatures. They have good and bad days, just like us.

Also consider the judging system. You can have different call judges for different classes. If you get a 1st under a judge in one class that isn't a call judge, you may place 3rd. Well, if that judge is the call judge for the Stakes, it could be a completely different story. But, if you run it as a Championship, you don't have that second chance.

Plus, if you don't show back in a Championship you forfeit all winnings (points, prizes, and possibly-money). It's one thing to ask a horse to walk in the ring and stand one more time. It's completely different to ask a horse to do another driving class.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Ok but how come I see these horses go back to back in driving classes, especially at Nationals? You say the horse is a animal, can't be machines. I'm sorry but when it comes to the National level your horse must be on its top game and should not be spooked, or break they should go in looking like champions. Especially in a championship class. Yes judges can change, and they can change their minds. Isn't that why they changed the halter championship classes to give the judges time to change their minds? I understand if a horse goes lame they can't drive, but in halter they do ask the horses to trot now, if your horse is lame in its halter championship class then he won't pin.

IMO perhaps we just have too many driving classes offered at Nationals. Get away with the sexed horse driving classes and the aged classes and instead just have youth, amateur, open, and even ladies, gentlemen, and golden age. The other classes take up alot of time and you just see the same horses go back in time and time again. Perhaps it would even save a day.

I understand everyone wants to play it fair but this is a National show.

 

[Minimor]

Anyway, Stakes classes have not been on that final Sunday since we began attending Nationals in 2005. And I don't recall seeing a Roadster or Driving class with five or fewer entrants until this year.

I thought from reading through the show results different years the Stakes entries were always pretty light--not necessarily 5 or less, but often less than 10--which is very small considering the number of entries in many of the regular classes.
Looking at the show results from 2009 most of the Stakes classes had 8 or fewer entries. The smallest ones were some of the Pleasure Driving classes: 6 in 30-32", only 4 in 32-34" 6 in 34-36", 5 in 36-38". 5 in Western Country Pleasure 36-38", 2 in the Over Park Harness class. Only 2 of the stakes classes had a full entry of 10 or more horses. One had 9 entries and all the rest were 8 or fewer.

Regardless of which day the Stakes classes are it seems that there are always a number of people who say they couldn't stay any longer, they had to get home. Likewise there are those who say they hadn't done well through the week they decided not to bother staying and some who just don't want to stay extra days & pay out a lot more money--not just the entry fee for the stake class but the hotel & food expenses count up too for every extra day.

That has always surprised me. As I said on a different thread the other day, there just doesn't seem to be a whole lot of prestige to winning the Stake classes at Nationals--people just don't really seem to care if they miss those classes.

 

[Echo Acres]

Can someone tell me how the payouts run for stakes? It is a payback class, maybe people don't realize they have a chance at winning money.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Can someone tell me how the payouts run for stakes? It is a payback class, maybe people don't realize they have a chance at winning money.

Thats just it. There isn't much money to be won. I think someone said if you got 3rd place you only win $70 or something like that. And to be honest I don't think in many of those classes the amount of entries did not pay for the stake money. So if it continues to get lower and lower entries will the payout decrease as well? I remember the one year that we did go into stakes there were quite a bit of horses in those classes. That was in 2007. Yes 2008 had the hurricane, I don't know what 2009 had, but this year was nothing. If you say its because people don't want to pay to go in there, its only $10 more then your open class. That can't be it. Maybe perhaps they don't care or don't feel like they have a chance, fine. Then lets get a championship driving classes going for the winners. I think more people would stay for that.

 

[Coventry Lane Farm]

When we were placed Reserve National Grand in Park Harness, Under in 2007, we received a check for $150.00.

The payout doesn't decrease because of low entries, each year its payout of 375.00 regardless of how many in the class. The only reason that we left this year was because of having Stakes on Sunday, we had to head for home and this is the first year that they extended the Nationals to finish up on Sunday since they added some ammy classes (ammy halter obstacle and ammy obstacle driving) that pushed everything back a day.

 

[Sandee]

When we were placed Reserve National Grand in Park Harness, Under in 2007, we received a check for $150.00.

The payout doesn't decrease because of low entries, each year its payout of 375.00 regardless of how many in the class. The only reason that we left this year was because of having Stakes on Sunday, we had to head for home and this is the first year that they extended the Nationals to finish up on Sunday since they added some ammy classes (ammy halter obstacle and ammy obstacle driving) that pushed everything back a day.

Those AMMY classes were a good thing to add - unless I missed something last year. Every year from 2008 back the open obstacle driving and halter classes have been HUGE; taking an entire morning and sometimes running over into the afternoon session. The class I remember from 2008 halter obstacle was over 40 horses. The ammy this year was 24 and the open around 30+. Believe me standing, waiting for the class to finish in that arena for 2 hours (2008) was torture. So let's not gripe about the "added" classes.

Those that run the program know that they will NEVER be able to satisfy EVERYONE. I loved every minute of this years show --- yes even the ones where I was grumpy because I was soooo tired.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Yes I agree those ammy classes were needed and I think the amateurs appreciated those classes. I know me and a couple of my friends are defintelly planning on showing those classes next year. Having obstacle at the very end of the National show was exhausting to the owner and the horse, giving the opportunity to have it available in the amateurs gave the ammy owner a chance to show his/her horse and not have to wait thru all the open classes just to show that horse in obstacle.

I don't have any plans to partake in the open next year, its mostly trainers anyways so it gives the amateur exhibitor a chance to show in all of their classes.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Ok I have to add this. Haven't they always had a liberty class at the end of the show? This year they had one right after amateur and then again Friday night. The liberty class after amateur may have cost a night. The ammy obstacle did not take up the whole entire day, in fact if I remeber right it ended at the end of the morning like it was suppose too, and it was just one morning session, that was it.

 

[Coventry Lane Farm]

We will most likely arrive later for Nationals and give up some of the amatuer classes so we can stay for the driving stake classes. We always do better in the open classes even though we are a small farm and we can compete with the professionals.

There was alot of entries in just about all the classes since there were somewhere around 1900 horses attending being a record number. Should have been a good profit as well for the registry.

And Yes...its hard to keep everyone happy with what classes to have scheduled on which particular day. I have been a show manager an open miniature horse show and with offering 30 different classes and hiring a carded AMHR judge 6 years and you always get complaints no matter how much you bend over backwards for people, and that was having over $1300.00 in cash payouts plus tons of mercandise donated from various businesses.

Finally I gave up on putting on the show and wasn't worth all the hassle and now people complain that there is not a local open fun show for miniatures any longer. Sometimes you just can't win.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Ok where did you see or hear around 1900 horses competiting? According to the AMHR results page their was only 1462 horses in the show. Thats about how much we have been getting on average these past years. 1900 horses that would be awesome but didn't feel like that many. Just curious.

 

[Coventry Lane Farm]

We were also told that most likely next year there would be stalls put in the barn connected to the Super Duty Barn since they were so many attend the Nationals this year and the other barns were totally full.

In our show group alone we all took up 98 stalls, last year we had 75 stalls. We had heard the figure of 1900 from multiple trainers and some other trainers that are carded judges that were showing at Nationals.

The one open halter class that we had a horse shown in there was 50 and I never saw a regular halter class have that many in rows lined up and we did place in the class with my husband showing our own horse against the trainers. All the classes that we were entered in were large.

 

[Minimor]

1462 was the official number of horses entered. That's what I was told at the start of the show and since horses cannot post enter there would not have been any added to that number after the start of the show. No doubt there were extra stalls in use, given the number of horses that are brought along to Nationals as a means to getting them delivered to their new owners.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Also alot of stalls were used for people to stay and sleep in this year as well. It would amaze me for them to beable to fit 1900 horses in the barns.