AMHS

[miniwhinny]

I'm sorry, this is really ridiculous and causes me to assume that the proposal is by those who already have an 'oversize' production problem with their herd.

The stated purpose of this proposal is to bring needed money into AMHA. If that were actually the ONLY purpose ....needing money.....the solution is VERY simple .............. [SIZE=18pt]Lower the hardship fees drastically for Under 34" horses! That would create an influx of new registrations and corresponding income[/SIZE]!

If you have an oversize production problem with your herd the solution is simple for that too......GET SMALLER BREEDING STOCK! Quit trying to change the association to suit the wants of a few.

Charlotte

Don't post on controversial posts but this one I just have to...Couldn't have said it better Charlotte. :aktion033: Now lets see..."miniature" means...BIG right? NOT!!!!! Sounds a little sarcastic..sorry but seriously folks.."miniature" means MINIATURE. If I raised ponies I'd market them as ponies. If my 29 inch and 30 inch miniature horses produced a pony foal I'd sell it as a small pony, not look to make some new registry so it looked more legit. Sorry. Are we going to look back in 20 years and find all the true mini's gone - replaced by larger ponies. When I started in mini's I went to a breeder who asked "are you looking for a mini A or B"? Seemed like an ozymoron to me.."hey do you want a mini mini or a big mini" LOL. Call me hardcore but I wouldn't want to buy a 24 inch high Chihuahua either :bgrin (flame away - I'm sure I speak for a lot of people to afraid to post their true thoughts.

: )

 

[Songcatcher]

Please, I hope everyone understands that this was not my proposal and that I am not promoting or opposing it. It was just some new information I got and wanted to hear others opinion on it.

Opinions seem to be very strong and with good reasoning.

 

[Becky]

As long as amha and amhr allow horses that are obviously over height for their class to show and win the problem will never be solved.

Yep!

both registries need to crack down and start measuring right!!!

Amen!!

 

[coopermini]

"both registries need to crack down and start measuring right!!!"

The start of the problem!

"the problem with not recongnizing over size stock is that then they can never close and be a breed. Once you become a "breed" you cant kick out foals that come from registered stock simply because they went over 34. Lawsuits would abound just like they did with AQHA."

There are several/numerous cattle/sheep and swine registries that all have breed requirements and if they are not met those offspring are not elligible for registry even from legal reg. parents. Example would be in Belted galloway breed you can't have any white on the feet. When it happens are the people disappointed, Yes! Are there lawsuits? not that I hear about.

Do mini breeders sue if they end up with a dwarf?

Mark

 

[JWC sr.]

Well, now that someone brought up the measuring fiasco, I will add my two cents worth on that.

The entire horse world measures to the top of the withers besides us and in other places such as europe they even measure mini's to the top of the withers. Why in the heck do we have to try and reinvent the wheel. I personally believe that we should all be measuring to the same standard as other breeds, thereby adding credibility to our measuements.

Measure to the top of the withers, enforce it religiously, allow for horses that were measured in under the old specifications to keep thier papers as breeders, but if a horse walks into the ring it must measure appropriately. No matter how much money a person has or how big a trainer is period!!!

:saludando:

 

[midnight star stables]

:aktion033: Good for AMHA!

I know that Joy is going to go over as is her 1/2 brother and both sire and dams are under 33-32". I don't think they should lose their papers.

I'm happy they final opened up their doors to the bigger minis, even if it is only 36". :aktion033:

 

[Sandee]

Love this forum. What an eye opener at times. I had no idea, since I have registered my little group with AMHA but never shown - no shows within hundreds of miles, that there was so much controversy. Reading this does help me understand why my older wonderfully trained but definitely over 34" gelding (he's 35" if not more) had permanent papers from both registries at 33.75".

I don't show him. I'll never give him up but I'll never "fix" his papers either. He wasn't cut until he was 7 and he has decendents out there.

 

[MyBarakah]

Hi,

Being of a smaller farm I think they should lower the fees for hardshipping and make it more feesable for the smaller guys! It's the smaller breeder/people that what makes the horsey world go round!! (in my opinion!)...... They need to make it more user friendly!

Also........ I think they should do away with the DNA! How in the heck do you know "for sure" how that DNA is really coming from that horse!! Hopefully everyone's honest........but really...... how rigued could that really be!?? I think they just need to have one stinking registry!! Just like with the quarter horses! Yes... you have your foundation regsitery and the palamino and buckskin registry.... But it's still everything has to go threw/be registered threw the Quarter horse association first........ Would make things simpler for EVERYONE and combine the rules for AMHA & AMHR. But would be horses 37" and under and the ponies would be a whole seperate deal. I think that makes more sense to me. Would dang sure simplify things!!! And they should have a director or 2 for each state to come and get the DNA samples. So you knew it would be right!

But that is just my thoughts........... People need to quite trying to compete against each other and look outside THE BOX!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just imagine HOW much $$ would be coming in if it was just all ONE big A** registry!!! You know how many $$$$$$$ thousands of dollars would be coming in if everything would just be one!!!!!!!!!

People need to get thier pride put aside and consider that!

 

[anita]

I'm sorry, this is really ridiculous and causes me to assume that the proposal is by those who already have an 'oversize' production problem with their herd.

The stated purpose of this proposal is to bring needed money into AMHA. If that were actually the ONLY purpose ....needing money.....the solution is VERY simple .............. [SIZE=18pt]Lower the hardship fees drastically for Under 34" horses! That would create an influx of new registrations and corresponding income[/SIZE]!

If you have an oversize production problem with your herd the solution is simple for that too......GET SMALLER BREEDING STOCK! Quit trying to change the association to suit the wants of a few.

Charlotte

Thanks Charlotte ! The best I heard and read the past 4 years.

Easy and simple : Get Smaller Breeding Stock !

Anita

 

[MountainViewMiniatures]

I don't know how I feel about another registry yet but I do know that the associations need to decide where they are taking these horses in the future - a breed by height or a breed by blood. I do lean towards a breed by blood for numerous reasons but then , as mentioned, you cannot pull papers on an oversize horse.

One real problem I see is when someone invests literally thousands of dollars on a purchase of a great foal, thousands showing that foal and then winding up with a worthless (dollar wise) oversize pet pony. I will not normally buy a foal unless it is double registered and if I do buy an A horse I will always hardship into R but not vice versa because of the disparity in A's price to hardship. There really are no guarantees what size that foal will be until he/she is 5 years old - I know breeders do sell with some guarantees but you have still invested your time, money, hopes and dreams(not to mention your love!) in that foal only to have it go over - I'm not surprised that you would find many over 34 in a herd especially because they can produce smaller (one of the numerous reasons I mentioned pro breed by blood). I myself only have 3 full grown mares at this time with 2 at 33 1/2 and one at 30 1/2(and guess who rules the other 2?). Another problem I see is that since many horses are bred before they attain their full growth you have absolutely no idea what you are breeding height wise -use the growth charts? well, I only have ever had 4 foals in the 6 years I have had minis (a 25 year breeder of AQHA though)but not one of them has followed the charts. I have also bought foals using the charts and , again, those foals outgrew what the chart predicted by more than an inch. It does make me hesitant to buy foals (though certainly hasn't stopped me :lol: !) but I have been a little disappointed and do expect at least my filly that I bought this year to outgrow her A papers (thankfully she is also R - even though she does have a height guarantee) but do I show her at the A shows for which I specifically bought her for - she may outgrow her papers even before she is 1 and that will decide that! No matter I do love her and she is still a gorgeous sweet girl - but since I really only have A shows in my area that will definately put a crimp in my showing and actually made me decide to bring home a weanling filly I bought this year that I was going to leave with a trainer to be shown so I can hit the A shows with a great prospect.

Well I see that I am running on and on and my grammar, etc are really starting to suffer! So I will get off my soapbox - I don't know if another registry is the answer but something needs to be done about the oversize horses - maybe a breeding stock designation like the Paint horses have or an appendix registry, I do know there is a solution out there

Thanks

edited for spelling - why can't I ever remember to proof read first!

 

[Ronnie]

Hello Everyone,

Just wanted to let you all know that I have been appointed Chairman of the new committee to investigate and propose the initial establishment of AMHS. This committee is currently being formed. I would like to address a few of the concerns that have been stated here.

This new registries purpose is not intended to compete with any existing registry as some other proposed registries might, but is intended to address and serve what many have been telling us for years is a much needed area in our industry.

While it is anticipated it will generate revenue, again that is not its sole purpose. Many, many people from both large and small farms alike have been telling AMHA for many years that we need to address the horses that oversize and lose their AMHA papers. This endeavor will hopefully give a lot of very nice horses the recognition they deserve and allow them to keep their recorded pedigree intact. It is also not intended to make everybody legitimate because we all know most of those oversize horses out there in peoples pastures will stay out there in those pastures and keep breeding under their AMHA papers. We are not under the delusion that everyone that is currently fudging will suddenly stop and send in AMHA papers to convert them to AMHS.

As for the tight height band of 34 – 36â€, that was only an initial proposal and very well may wind up being 34 -38â€. We are also not naive enough to think that this new registry will not also have some fudgers and if the max. height winds up being 38†that there won’t be some 39†horse out there in someone’s pasture. I also believe there will always be people that drive over the speed limit and if we raise it from 65 to 75 then many of the people that did drive 75 will now drive 85.

As for this just being another registry such as World Class or others that have started over the years this will not be the case. This registry will be owned by AMHA and will have the advantage of its vast data bases, years of experience, office support and guidance. It will however be a stand alone registry and will have its own bylaws, EC and most likely its own BOD.

I personally am very excited by this opportunity that is being offered to the Miniature Horse Industry and hope everyone gives it a fair chance and will take advantage of the many opportunities it will offer in the future. This is in its very infant stages of planning and nothing is set in stone so I would advise and invite everyone to get productively involved by offering any ideas you have and constructive criticism is welcome but let’s wait and see what the AMHS has to offer before starting to shoot it down. By the way, the name is not set in stone yet either but is the one we will use for now. This can and will be a major part of miniature horse future so get in on the ground floor and help make it all it can be! If you have any questions, comments, or concerns, please feel free to contact me. Different people of course, will have different ideas, some of which will conflict, so therefore everyone’s ideas cannot be implemented, but I guarantee you, they will be considered.

Best Regards

Ronnie Clifton

AMHA Region 3 Director

AMHS Committee Chairman

 

[MyBarakah]

Also had to ad to my 2 cents...... You can't go off a height chart as babies! I totally agree on that. Because some will do all thier growing in the first year some don't grow til' later.

I just think one big registry would just solve ALL the problems and then have your classes for as normal for your age/***/heigth.

Instead of agruing about this and that about each registry. IF it was just one....... there would be nothing to argue about (well.... I suppose there's always something to argue about...... you can't make everyone happy)..... But just simplifly! SIMPLFY! The key!

Then you could have like a driving horse association for these guys or a certain color association if one wanted to.... But everything would all have to be registered threw the one registration! You could have a $$ incentive fund, like you do with AQHA....... that is a HUGE $$ maker.........

People need to stop worrying about the heigth requirments and have think about making some MONEY here! I am in these minis because I thoroughly ENJOY them and LOVE to show and each new mini I invest in is going to be (or my goal is) to have one better than the one before! Quality not quantity (for me).... But I see these guys as a investment........ So I look at everything in $$ form! And can SEE how much money there would be coming in to have just ONE miniature horse association....... they would triple (or more) the money they are bringing in! Oh well....... those are just my thoughts on that......

:

 

[ruffian]

I know that Joy is going to go over as is her 1/2 brother and both sire and dams are under 33-32". I don't think they should lose their papers.

Good for AMHA!

So what do I do if I have a horse that's 36 1/2? Or What about 37? It's only a half inch or so over.

This is precisely why horses go oversize. There is oversize in their background! Instead of changing the rules, enforce them! I've been to lots of farms that have AMHA horses over 34". One response I got when I asked how tall a mare was that was OBVIOUSLY over 38" was "she's not 5 yet, I haven't measured her".

The rules state that they are permanently registered at 5 years old if 34" or under, or WHEN THEY EXCEED 34".

I have 3 horses out of 17 that are over 34". All three had AMHA papers - 2 mares and 1 gelding - All are now AMHR permanently.

We don't need another registry. AMHR handles up to 38, and ASPC handles over that.

If you want AMHA horses, breed horses that are under 34" for several generations. Breed to stallions that are under 32 or 33, not at 34"

 

[Wiggy]

Perhaps if the breed standard were truly upheld.... the SMALLEST... most correct horse.... then none of this would be an issue.... instead of everyone trying to brred there horse to be at the very top of the 34" class... how about trying to breed them DOWN over the generations. And no... I dont mean that I think everyone should have 27" horses.... cuz I know they "cant" be used for all the same things as the taller ones - I mean like driving - ... but a 28-32" horse is still a perfectly capable driving athlete. Why arent the big time show winners in the 32" and under classes being given a big pat on the back....

Sorry... it has always been a pet peeve of mine.

And as for the new registry/association/division.... I think it is rediculous!

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Ronnie will this new registry you want to make happen will it just be acceptable to oversize AMHA horses? This won't be a new registry that will accept any B size miniature?

 

[FoRebel]

Here's my 2¢ on this... I have both AMHA and AMHR horses. My 2 senior studs are double registered and I have A double registered mare. If I want a larger horse, I will go get an AMHR registered horse and not bother looking at the AMHA horses. But personally, I don't breed for size. I breed for confirmation, personality, and blood.

That being said, I personally am not thrilled with the idea of having the AMHS registry. I feel that it's just one more thing to spend money on. I don't think that this is going to solve many problems. I like having the AMHR as the "oversized" mini registry. And I like having the AMHA with it's height restrictions.

The entire horse world measures to the top of the withers besides us and in other places such as europe they even measure mini's to the top of the withers. Why in the heck do we have to try and reinvent the wheel. I personally believe that we should all be measuring to the same standard as other breeds, thereby adding credibility to our measuements.

LOVE THIS!!!!! I have had large horses all my life! I don't "get" why the registries wants to measure like they do. I honestly would love for the minis to be measured at the withers since the rest of the horse world measures that way and recognizes the withers as the hight of the horse.

Basically, I am "NO AMHS" and feel that the hight measurements need to be regulated.

 

[Shari]

becky i really value your opinion and i understand what you are saying. But amha DOES NEED to compete. They have been in financial trouble off and on ever since I became a member. amha shows are so limited and that also really needs to change.

I have always felt that AMHA needed to address the oversize horses. Its just not right to say that a horse with all amha breeding that goes over 34" is a grade non registrable horse. One of the very first mares I bought went over 34" i bought her as a 3 year old never dreaming she would continue to grow but she did. To date she has never had a foal that went over 31.50"

And I have NEVER been to a farm yet that bred amha horses and didnt have an amha horse over 34" out in the pasture. Its so common that no one even thinks anything about it. Now dont get me wrong im sure there are some farms with horses all 34 and under but i have never personally seen one yet. There always seems to be a couple mares out in the pasture that are obviously over 34 yet still have amha papers.

I agree.. Theia'a parents are AMHA registered and she was until she went over sized a little bit. I would like to see the AMHA step up to bat and change their registery rules. There is nothing wrong with Theia's quality and she comes from AMHA registered horses. Have always thought it wrong of the Registry just to dump good mini's because they go over height.

There are far more smaller horse's out there with such bad conformation that they should not be bred....yet they are because they are small.

Will not go into what I have seen over the years...but it is like what Kaykay said.

anyway... I would be for the change to allow the over height ones to stay registered.

 

[midnight star stables]

I know that Joy is going to go over as is her 1/2 brother and both sire and dams are under 33-32". I don't think they should lose their papers.

Good for AMHA!

So what do I do if I have a horses that's 36 1/2? Or What about 37? It's only a half inch or so over.

This is precisely why horses go oversize. There is oversize in their background! Instead of changing the rules, enforce them! I've been to lots of farms that have AMHA horses over 34". One response I got when I asked how tall a mare was that was OBVIOUSLY over 38" was "she's not 5 yet, I haven't measured her".

The rules state that they are permanently registered at 5 years old if 34" or under, or WHEN THEY EXCEED 34".

I have 3 horses out of 17 that are over 34". All three had AMHA papers - 2 mares and 1 gelding - All are now AMHR permanently.

We don't need another registry. AMHR handles up to 38, and ASPC handles over that.

If you want AMHA horses, breed horses that are under 34" for several generations. Breed to stallions that are under 32 or 33, not at 34"

My horse has a background of horses under 33", she's 33" now at 21 months, chances are she will go over. But she might not. But if she does, I will give up her papers. She has AMHR paper and I show AMHR but what's wrong with wanting to keep her AMHA papers?

I like B horses, what's wrong with that?

And for horses that's 36 1/2? Or What about 37? It's only a half inch or so over. Well to bad, what of AMHR horses over 38 ½� O-well they don't get reg. What's the problem? Those are the rules. And if the Club changes the rules, okay then. I was only saying that I thought it was a good idea. That's all, being supportive.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I am TOTALLY against this idea! Are there things AMHA needs to change to maintain its status as a registry - probably yes. Is this it - NO!!! I GUARANTEE that if something like this happens, AMHA will see its end because all of those breeders who still believe in the "perfect horse in miniature" will just create their own group who still appreciates the smallest of the horses. Believe me, just becoming another AMHR isn't the answer. We already have a registry for the taller ones!

OK, I'll go take my meds now and try to hold my tongue :bgrin

 

[targetsmom]

Here is my 2 cents and another point of view. Why not just have a separate part of the AMHA registry for "Oversize" minis? If an Oversize mini was bred and produced a registerable (i.e. 34" or under) foal then the foal would be registered as AMHA. You would preserve some of the blood (and money!) that is now being lost when AMHA horses go oversize, without re-inventing the wheel.

I see this as similar to what Pinto does with breeding stock - if you breed 2 pintos and get a solid color foal, there is a separate section in the registry (and separate classes as shows). The prices for these animals are usually lower than for colored Pintos, but higher than if they had no papers at all. If they produce colored offspring, they are registered as regular Pintos. Seems to work for them.