Among The Uninformed

[anita]

Its a joy to read your post Frank. Thank you very much, excellent put

I belong to the uninformed too and breed for 30 and under correct small horses with success.

I would like to invite everyone to see my horses and their foals, anytime !

The fox who couldn't reach the grapes said : I don't like them they are too bitter

Anita

 

[MiLo Minis]

"I would far rather see most of these horses (the protested ones) being used for breeding than the little squashed dwarfy things that people think are perfectly fine to sell to uninformed people, or just perpetuationg a misconception."

When I read this I don't see the poster calling anyone that is breeding sound, beautifully formed, tiny Minis "uninformed". I read it that some people breeding unsoundly conformed horses sell them to "uninformed" newcomers to the equine world as being better than they are and good examples of conformation in Miniature. I have personally seen this happen MANY times. I have also seen badly dwarfed animals exhibited as being Miniature Horses. I don't consider any dwarf, no matter what the height, a Miniature Horse. I find it slightly appalling that people in the past trying to rush things along (as people tend to do) brought dwarf blood into the breed and I don't think that it is a bad thing to try to breed that out of them as much as is possible. IF by conscientious breeding of nothing but the best conformed tiny animals accomplishes that for you - more power to you! IF some breeders feel that the way to accomplish it is to bring in fresh blood of slightly taller stature, still in Miniature, more power to them. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and to use their own methods.

I personally take a little offense to being told that my over 34" registered Miniatures are not "TRUE" Miniatures but you are entitled to your opinion. I have always preferred, and bred, the taller Minis because I enjoy the performance aspect of horses and even you have to admit that a 35" Mini is going to be able to accomplish a whole lot more in harness than a 28" Mini. I have also admired the tiny perfectly conformed Miniatures that are out there. I think they make marvellous pets and, for the people that love and want them, I am glad they are there.

Dwarfism exists in all breeds and I think, rather than bashing each other, we should as responsible breeders do what each of us can to eliminate it as much as possible from our preferred breed.

Edited to add: I just read what John Eberth said which must have been being written as I was writing my reply and all I have to say is

what he said

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

John I must say sometimes I dont get entirely what you are saying however I do think I grasp the basic concept( i tend to have a short attention span unless I am talking to someone in person and engaging in the conversation) I do know this though for me and me only-

the bottom line is I have to listen and continue to try and grasp what your family says and really try to understand it and take note about things in this industry.

I may or may not always agree on a personal level but on a business level the bottom line is for me there is simply put NO OTHER FAMILY who has such a handle for what and how to do things ~breeding hey lets be honest some are fans some might not be of the type.. that aside.. you grew up in this industry, lived and breathed it with everything from handling, breeding, feeding, marketing, promotion, showing, sales, your horses have been and are icons in the breed so when you talk I listen. I know I am going to learn something how can I not....

What you are doing is working again another fact.

LIke them or not your horses are consistent most can be seen at a glance as breeding of those icons even generations back- your horses continue to make a mark on the industry- your marketing/promotion plans & ideas have proven to be one of the best those are all facts.

Those facts are enough for me to know..that you have many of the answers I need to succeed in this industry plain and simple - I do hope that I can sit down with you for a while to be able to fully understand more your studies and what you are finding out.

As the owner of a beloved dwarf it is IMO my responsibility to her memory to learn as much as I can

 

[Buckskin gal]

I think what has happened in these threads on small minis is that some are saying it is the small ones that produce the dwarfs, but like John says, it is the taller ones also and that is to be understood since we can find the same backgrounds in both the tall and the small. We do have to keep in mind, as John said, "No one knows the prevalence of the dwarf genes and the types, and there is more than one type, those are the issues I am working on in my graduate studies. It is known that some smaller miniature horses have dwarfs (so do some larger Miniatures), and most people know that dwarf characteristics involve small stature. So some people, especially ones that dont have much knowledge in horse conformation, are going to assume the smaller horses are more likely to carry the gene or are a dwarf. That is unfortunate because some people are not trying to learn proper basic animal breeding practices and correct horse conformaion. " It shouldn't have to be small breeders against the tall breeders if there wasn't the finger pointing. I really doubt that anyone on this forum is trying to breed for a dwarf, but they are trying to breed for what our Standards call for. JMHO Mary

 

[slv]

Excellent post John. As usual it was very informative. You have my total respect.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

again.. SOME people reading into more then what was actually written.. No one was pointing out SMALL = DWARF

Mary Lou, I don't have the quote in front of me, but I believe there was someone who was making just that correlation - under 28" = dwarf.

Yes there are some VERY small horses that are just that, small, and do not carry any dwarf gene, and will never produce a dwarf. Same is seen in humans that are just small and not due to a dwarf gene of any kind.

Very true.

Dwarfism exists in all breeds and I think, rather than bashing each other, we should as responsible breeders do what each of us can to eliminate it as much as possible from our preferred breed.

 

[Bess Kelly]

Here's another tiny horse lover !! And it gets worse, I began my world of miniatures by breeding with and for the 28 & unders. The tiny ones are still my favorite -- although I do own a couple B size (bought them didn't breed the from own stock).

However, I am not uninformed! Nope, I know a good horse when I see it for the most part and my trophy case proves that the judges agree with me. Have never shown a horse over 29". Besides, it is twice as hard to breed for the tiny ones, choose the partners and maintain the conformation as it is with the tall ones.

Of course, this is just my own opinion.

That said, I love all horses of any size........any size!........and respect others who do the same.

 

[Mona]

That said, I love all horses of any size........any size!........and respect others who do the same.

Now THAT'S the best statement I have heard yet!

I agree...100%

 

[skylineminis]

I guess I'm informed and uninmforned. I like all sizes of minis. I like the little ones because they are so cute. I like the bigger ones because you can do more with therm, such as driving and jumping, etc. Each has their own qualities and can do wha the other may not be able to do. The little ones are great to take to nursing homes and hospitals and make terrific ambassadors for the mini world. It would be tough to take a 36" horse into a hospital room or into a room filled with wheelchairs, not that it couldn't be done. It would just be a little more problematic.

I raise both under 27" and over 34". My tallest stallion is 32" and my smallest is 27". I do prefer my mares to be between 30"-35". Easier for the carring of foals and I feel less chance of a problem in foaling. Like I said, a LESS chance of possible problems.

I feel there is plenty of room for both "A" size and "B" size miniatures in this world to be fighting over which is better. Breed for what you like and for what you want to do with them.

I have seen and met a few people that were taken advantage of when they purchased their first mini. It's a shame that some have passed a "not so good" horse off as being a good horse. It happens often. When I talk to people that are thinking of buying a mini horse for the first time, I advise them to do a lot of reading and to go to several farms and ranches and compair the prices verses the quality. They should also take a person that knows horses with them. Several breeders will tell a person anything they feel they can get away with just to sell a horse. That usually comes back to bite them. Word of mouth gets around very fast, be it good or bad.

I do wish the registries would provide a palce on the papers to put an identification letter or somerthing to designate that this horse has produced a dwarf, but, that will ony work if breeders will/would be honest. Then maybe blood could be drawn from that horse to go to a database to help identify the dwarf gene. It would also help people by informing them on how to breed that animal in the future, it they chose to breed it again. I know some will say the horse should not be bred again, others will say "1 in 4 chance" of ever getting another one. I would give a good horse another chance but, if it produced another dwarf, bred to a different spouse, the horse should be taken out of production, permantly.

 

[Marty]

I see no reason for anyone to get testy here.

Everyone is trying to learn about a very sensitive subject and no need to be snarkly or on the defensive.

I thought for a lot of years that breeding the smaller ones could get you a dwarf easier than with the taller ones. Surely I am not alone here. It took time for me to learn a few things about dwarfism and that dwarfism came in all sizes. And also as an "aged" older mare, I am still learning every single day with an open mind.

It's when you think you know it all and close up your mind to new concepts and theories is when you stop learning and do yourself a dis-service.

And I, like you all here, still would like to learn more information and soak it up like a sponge as fast as I can.

Let's all keep the lines of communication open and be supportive towards each other. We are all in this together for the love of our breed.

 

[Jill]

I'd rather have one standing 38" and be the look I like than one 29" (since I hardly ever like any I've seen under 30"). To each his / her own.

Forgive me if I'm wrong here but isn't it time for a new message board...one solely FOR the 34 and under mini's where those of us that LOVE the small miniature can freely share without comments like this. I know everyone is entitled to his/her opinions but why do people really feel the need to just be nasty. Adding those little comments tells a lot about a persons character.

You're entitled to love the under 30" ones just as I'm entitled to rarely like those enough to include them in my herd. I also really prefer the color purple over the color blue. I like chocolate more than I like vanilla. Is that insulting? What's the difference??? I didn't put that bold in my original comment and why would my personal preference insult you? I was not nasty. And, interestingly enough, all but two individuals in my herd would qualify me to participate in your proposed under 34" message board.

 

[just2minis]

had to delete. But John from Arion, and Frank - Thank you for posting.

 

[Amy]

John & Frank -- I learned form BOTH of your posts -- Frank's was quite a sarcastic way of educating -- but it WAS educating -

John's, as usual was factual and very interesting as well -- John, I would love to have the name of some of those books to learn faster what I have also been studying and learning as I went along.

Tony -- everyone , I believe has admired what you have done with the "little" horses.

I am so VERY proud of our "little" 29" stallion with his HALL OF FAME in Country Pleasure Driving

Boones Little Buckeroo Charmer -- grandson Of Buckeroo - bred for conformation correctness - throws gorgeous foals -- and guess what -- some of them go bigger (or taller) than he is. AND not one has ever gone over 34"

Having said that -- we also have a gorgeous 36" stallion who is also gorgeous -- who is also a gorgeous driver -- does he have more action than Charmer? Of course -- because he is taller he can "reach" farther.

Because he is "taller" he can cover ground more quickly. Because he is taller he will do all things differently.

He is the first horse we ever bought over 34".

However, we do not see it as a competition as to "WHICH ONE IS THE BETTER HORSE"

Both are correct in conformation -- they will produce different types and different things in their offspring.

Both are beautiful animals -- both are in our breeding shed and we will continue to have both the SMALL & the TALL .

We are also trying to strive for the best horse we can produce.

This has been a very interesting and educational thread-- too bad it always gets taken so personally. One can or should be able to criticise the horse, size or type or color without being critical of the owner -- who breeds for that size, or type or color.

 

[Georgine]

The "dwarf" topic was really starting to bother me.

I was born a farmer, turned banker, and have turned farmer again, since retiring.

I do not have many equine qualifications other than my "hands on"experience with horses for my lifetime.

My parents were 5 foot two (Dad) and 4 foot 10 inches (Mum).

None of their children were dwarfs. When a stranger visited they would sometimes make a comment about the smaller stature of the 6 of us and I remember my uncle once saying "well, you can't get rats from mice"

I am the tallest in the family at 5 foot 2 inches. My bite is a little "off' but otherwise, I wouldn't do too badly in the show ring....................sorry, I couldn't resist, just trying to be funny

I love the smaller miniature horse and would like to have all my herd under 32 inches, under 30 would be even better.

I was happy to read the posts by more knowledgeable people than I, who make me feel better about my desire to breed for the smaller horse.

Maybe we are "barn blind" but we get many positive comments about our small horses.

 

[Robin]

Thank you John for putting the verbage behind the thoughts. That is where all that money for education pays off.

I want to clarify something that I have said more than once. I try to speak in some general fashion and try not to get too specific since that is where I think John loses some people sometime. When we state that concentrating small to small genetics will increase the breeding into "dwarf-dom" we mean just that- it increases your chances of getting more of those confomrational characterisitcs if you are not careful, educated, knowledgeable in the background and produce record of the horses you are breeding. John is absolutely right- a 34" horse can throw a dwarf, but it takes 2 to tango. That means both horses had to carry the dwarf gene. Not only that- chances are there were some sort of dwarf charateristics in both of those horses- huge eyes, domed head, smaller parents- maybe one had thrown a dwarf before etc etc- all that needs to be considered when breeding 2 horses.

When Mom bought her first horses- she bought small stallions and taller mares. She did not like the weaner dog, no legged or German Shepard leg look that was so prevalent in them back then being bred by the most well known breeders. Now mind you again- there were only 12 miniature horse breeders in the country on the first list she got when she sent away for it from the association- and this would be the AMHR. There was no AMHA or IMHR yet at that time. Mom learned real fast when she started to breed - what stallion produced what. If you look back at the horses we started with- majority Stout and Komoko- who can tell what horses we kept to this day in our program and what ones didn't fit her desired type or quality. We started with 5 under 29" stallions--Komokos Don Wan, Komokos Wee Willie, Komokos Little King Supreme, Stouts Black Magic and Komokos Apple Jack. By the time my mom produced her first National Champion- she was down to one of these stallion- Komokos Little King Supreme and of course she bought Buckeroo.

Komokos Little King Supreme was a wonderful find - he was all of 27.5" and in the 29 years we bred him- never produced a Dwarf (out of 144 foals). We can not say the same for the other 4 stallions. Although there were some nice foals sired by them- the numbers did not match up to the consistency and quality that King Supreme produced. Which is odd because for a fact we know that both King Supreme's sire and dam had produced a dwarf. He was the odd small percentage of being normal in non recessive dwarf gene and yet small height as well. This is where all the "right" genes came out on top! Of course, we didn't know he wasn't a recessive dwarf carrier right away. It took years before the light bulb came on and Mom said- "you know what- he has never thrown a dwarf"!!! We bred him to almost all the maiden mares and all our small mares -his foals were tiny boned, delicate - skinny faced and small barrelled. The entire industry sure did lose a wonderful set of genes when he past away. This one example is where most of our experience breeding small miniature horses come from.

The problem I find is people think that correct conformation is based on what a judge picked first in the ring or placed National Grand Champion.....And if you breed 2 Nat. Gr. Champions- you will be safe. That is not the case- the judges are not trained on the history of AMHA and taught what dwarf charateristics are and how predominant they are in the gene pool. They are only instructed to pick the smallest horse if they have 2 that appear equal in all other respects. You also have this idea of a very Arab face- well from my experience, an Arab face verses extreme dome and dish, bug eyes, bulbous nose and non tipped ears- do not equal an Arab face- although many people insist that is what they want and that is their idea of Arab. I am just suggesting that if you do not know the history or true correct form to function horse conformation- you may want to reconsider breeding until you get more specifics- that is if you really care about the potential of the quality of foal you are going to produce. But- needless to say-there have been times when out of the dark comes something unexpected! That is why we are so excited about John's research with the DNA structure to find the dwarf gene and mutations. Maybe there will be a day we won't have to use an educated guess.

My point is to help support John's research numbers by something that many of you may have seen or experienced- something more tangible by naming a specific horse. Mom and I talk in general numbers, because we can- we have over 400 horses here on the farm currently, we breed 200 mares a year and foal out 150 mares a year- not all ours- many horses shipped in here just for that. We see a lot, we ask a lot of questions- who is this foal by?, what is it's pedigree? etc. We gather a lot of data - not genetic DNA blood samples to do with what John does, but instead we use our eyes and experience. Let's face it- we aren't all going to drop what we are doing and go back to college to learn this stuff! Thanks to John and his desire and passion of the miniature horse DNA and his willingness to share his knowledge and test results we can use him to learn by and put specifics into our general way of doing things on a daily basis.

I just hope others will take it upon themselves to learn- not just ask the same repeated questions or give the same repeated answers. The small horses are great- if they are good- same with the tall horses. Good quality is the difference, correct form to function, balance and proportion, staight legs, small face etc. It is easy to fall in love with every horse- but doesn't mean every horse should be bred to reproduce. One of my favorite minis was also a Dwarf- Wilma Mankiller. She died of an impaction at 4 months of age. She was rotten and sweet all at the same time, but she was not "right" or "correct" - she had a good life for a short time. I don't like to see any animal go through what she went thru- but her heart was of steel and her will was unmatched. She taught us more than one lesson- love life while you can and that both her parents are recessive dwarf carriers!!!!

I hope my example may help some of you follow John's thoughts better.

Robin-LKF

 

[Reble]

We are never too old to learn and do have an open mind.

We still like a second opinion. I take what I like and leave the rest.

We will make the final decision, which is best for us in breeding miniature horses.

I do know in just the last 5 years, who we will not buy from. So we do learn.

Georgine

I am 5 foot and a hair... & two of my brothers are over 6 feet.

 

[Neil]

Thank you John for putting the verbage behind the thoughts. That is where all that money for education pays off.

I want to clarify something that I have said more than once.

[...]

I hope my example may help some of you follow John's thoughts better.

Robin-LKF

Thank you Robin for your posting here. There is a wealth of information in a short posting.

 

[nootka]

I would far rather see most of these horses (the protested ones) being used for breeding than the little squashed dwarfy things that people think are perfectly fine to sell to uninformed people, or just perpetuationg a misconception.

This was MY quote, and it was taken out of context as well as misunderstood and twisted to suit an agenda.

What I meant was that I would rather see a horse that is only "over" as far as it's "flaw" being used for breeding (though I would hope for full disclosure of true height) than a fairly obvious dwarf being used to breed more and then the offspring or the same horse being sold to someone that didn't know any better.

The possibility of a deformed foal is something that a new buyer should be informed about.

There are some pretty big names and long-term breeders using obvious dwarfs as breeding stock. I do see new and uninformed buyers purchasing, and from the attitudes, I doubt they know that their new horse may well be a dwarf or produce one, as well.

I have a suspicion that these people prey on others' inexperience and I've seen and heard some pretty disappointing tales on these mislead adventures. Caveat Emptor, though, right?

All I was stating was my opinion. I have no doubt, Frank, that you are fully informed of your breeding choices, and I would hope that your prospective buyers know exactly what they are getting when you sell a horse for breeding, regardless of how tall that horse is. It is what we would all expect, that old Golden Rule thing.

I never said nor implied that all tiny horses are dwarfs, nor that all people who pursue or like small are uninformed. THAT is not my intent at all, though one would like to paint me that way, much the same way others are assuming I'm talking about one horse in particular when I'm not.

Liz M.

 

[miniwhinny]

There are some pretty big names and long-term breeders using obvious dwarfs as breeding stock.

I have no doubt, Frank, that you are fully informed of your breeding choices, and I would hope that your prospective buyers know exactly what they are getting when you sell a horse for breeding,

Liz M.

I know it's probably not "the done thing" to post the names of farms using dwarfs goodness knows why not as I can't imagine ANY of us knowingly wanting to buy the offspring from one. Or perhaps it would be a good idea. Maybe it's time people could make informed choices and maybe it would "shame" those using dwarfs into not using them if their breeding programs were known about. Could you please e-mail me and let me know these farms as I plan on purchasing in the spring

. I also get the feeling that you are saying Frank is breeding dwarfs or am I reading that wrong?

As the dwarf issue haunts our breed and always will as long as people are using them I'd love to see a list. Protecting those breeders from being known is no different than protecting QH breeders breeding HYPP etc. Or maybe if not a list then everyone else needs to add to their web sites/ signatures..."We DO NOT breed dwarfs for any reason". We've got to start somewhere. There are some great strides being made in dwarf research but if people are still using them today and not knowing it's wrong (or knowing and doing it anyway) a test won't help much with that.

 

[nightflight]

Post removed.