Appaloosa Coloration

[Little Wolf Ranch]

Well I had only seen my supposed solid palomino mare in her winter coat and I am starting to see "spots" appear everywhere!

She comes from heavy appaloosa breeding - her whole dams side are appaloosas with Lucky Four breeding. Her sire's side is Bertrands and Soats breeding with solids as far as I can tell.

As her summer coat is coming in, I have found more white spots - not like the ones from scars, bites, etc. these are true spots. I am going to take before and after pictures when clipping her this evening, but I was wandering if it is possible that these are true appy spots? Pictures will help, I know. But before then I am wondering if I may have an appaloosa in my back yard! lol

With her heavy appy breeding, is it possible?

 

[walkermini]

Its definately possible, as long as a parent was appaloosa. It doesnt skip a generation, though some appys are so minimal some people dont really notice they are actually appy. It could also be birdcatcher spots or bend or spots. or lacing. Are they white spots, dark, or a mixture of both? Does she have mottled skin anywhere?

 

[ruffian]

I don't think there were any appaloosas in Soat bloodlines. But if she has it from the other she could absolutely be coloring out. Does she have any sclera or mottling? Striped hooves?

 

[HGFarm]

Looking forward to pics... yes, if her dam was Appy and she has characteristics- at least white sclera, etc... she could certainly be snowflaking out... How fun! LOL

 

[Little Wolf Ranch]

Hey guys!

Well clipping took a longer time than expected and we were wore out to say the least LOL. It was her first time, and she's 13 - so she couldn't figure out the whole deal!

To top it off, my camera doesn't work so I had to take pics with my cell phone so hopefully they will turn out alright LOL.

ANYWAYS. . .Before clipping we could only find 5 definate spots. . . after clipping we found nearly 40! Got to looking up information about appy colorations and stuff to that idea and she is showing all of these signs: mottling on udders and genitals to what I can tell (DEFINATELY looks different than any horse I've ever owned. . .and I've never owned an appy lol) and the nearly 40 white spots on her. She has striped hooves BUT they are grey with BLACK stripes --- UPDATE: I found white stripes on the back of her heels too!!? The spots are all circular and very definate white spots! There are even 4 on her face, on her chest, neck, sides, butt and back legs and she has no white markings other than a small star & stripe.

According to what I could find on the net, she would be classified as a SNOWFLAKE APPALOOSA. Do they get more spots as they get older? What do sowflakes tend to produce when bred? I read on the internet that a vast majority of people wouldn't think to be actively looking for spots and it appears this is what is happening here, as both her A & R papers say solid palomino, but this is not true - would it be worth my while to have it changed on her papers?

The funny thing is, I knew I loved pintos and all the variety you get with them, and I thought adding appaloosas would be just as fun because you never know what you are going to get with those either! So then I was looking into trading her for a nice equal valued Appaloosa mare. . .guess she heard me and decided to show her spots! LOL Guess I am getting an easy start into appies!

PICTURE FROM MOBILE PHONE LAST NIGHT OF HER UDDERS SHOWING MOTTLING:::

 

[Little Wolf Ranch]

OH MAN. . .JUST FORGOT. . .She's now showing all these appy characteristics and I just realized I have her bred to a PINTO. 

 Great. . .so maybe a little Pintaloosa is on the way for 2011 - DEFINATELY wasn't expecting that lol.

 

[HGFarm]

She certainly sounds like a snowflake, especially with spots on her head too. Here's the thing...I had a mare that snowflaked out with a LOT of spots at about age 7- she was just covered- too many to count. The next year she had about half that many. It seems they are not real consistant and can still come and go.

My chestnut mare Nutmeg has had snowflake spots show up, including a couple of obvious ones on her face, and then they disappeared. A couple of years ago she had a lot of spots. She has roaning too, that increases every year so am waiting for her to finish shedding this year to see how many snowflake spots remain, along with the roaning, LOL

They change from year to year, so be prepared! Hey, just think, it's like getting a new horse every year!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Her udder looks like a normal Palomino udder to me, are you sure the marks are not birdcatcher?

Have you clipped her before?

Looking forward to seeing some photos.

 

[Little Wolf Ranch]

rabbitsfizz, I do have other palominos here at my farm and when I had both of them tied up and compared - they didn't look anything alike. She genitals also have this coloration and I am 99% sure it's not from your basic pally markings. 

No one has ever clipped her before so this was the first time for her. Besides freaking out a bit, she did pretty good. 

She has these spots everywhere and has them even on her face, I've seen white marks from scars, etc. and they look nothing like those. I will be getting pics shortly. 

 

[Carolyn R]

my palomino stud has those spots under his tail down the upper inner thighs.

He comes from solid and tobiano background, no appy at all.

 

[Little Wolf Ranch]

Wow you have such a beautiful mare! According to her previous owner (I've only had her since October 2009) she never found any spots on her whatsoever so maybe, just maybe she is going to spot out more and more each year - which I would LOVE!

I think I've got "the appy bug" LOL. . .I've been browsing online more and more with appies and I think just maybe I am going to have to look into my budget and look around for more "spots" LOL!!!

The pic of her udder is very hard to see - much more noticeable in the light and in person. I am going outside here in a little bit to go take some pics - finally got batteries for my camera LOL. I have been looking up appy info and her spots look exactly like the ones I see online, and from what I have read all appies don't necessarily have mottling, is that correct?

 

[Little Wolf Ranch]

Got a decent picture of a cluster of spots that she has on her shoulder. She has many more on her chest, legs, rump, back thighs, neck, and head. I counted close to 50 today while examining her a bit more closely after our little photo shoot. Sorry about them being not very vivd as they are in person we were standing in the shade and out of the hot sun!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Since the mare appears to have no real characteristics, I honestly do not think she is suddenly going snowflake on you!!

There are a number of other possibilities you should examine before thinking Appy, I am afraid.

Birdcatcher spots would be my first guess.

 

[Sue_C.]

The mare that I once owned, who began with lacing, and ended up snowflaked, has grey and black stiped hooves as well, as does her daughter who is a black near leopard.

Do you have a picture of her head...I would like to see what her muzzle, eye rims and scelara look like.

 

[Little Wolf Ranch]

I know birdcatcher spots could be an option, but with her whole dam's side of the family being heavily bred and heavily expressed appaloosas, I am leaning more toward the appy side of things as far as genetics go. Makes sense that the appy gene would come into play moreso but from what I have read and seen, the birdcatcher spots are more common in TB lines and that both the snowflake pattern and birdcatcher spots look pretty much the same. So still very much a possibility.

I examined her hooves a bit more closely and she does has striped hooves with white, grey and black stripes. The more I look at her I do not see that much of mottling except for a few non-pinto related pink pigment "spots" against her black muzzle, but I have read that not all appies show mottling or very little mottling.

Must say that this is very confusing to say the least especially when there is no genetic test (that I am aware of) that I can do to get a true answer!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Well, I took a quick look at her pedigree and I would not say it was "Heavy" with Appies.

Also, of course, and this is a very big "also" she does not actually have an Appy sire or dam.....

Now, the theory is up in the air over this one, as there is still no test for Appy, but she would need to get the genes from both her parents, if neither expresses Appy, I am pretty certain that much has been decided, and she has a solid sire.....

 

[ruffian]

Appaloosa characteristics are Sclera around the eye, mottling on head (mouth and eyes), mottling on genitals, striped hooves, and, of course, spots.

Striped hooves can occur in non-appys. She doesn't appear to have mottling on her udder, I would not say she is going to appy, sorry

 

[Sue_C.]

but she would need to get the genes from both her parents, if neither expresses Appy, I am pretty certain that much has been decided, and she has a solid sire

Gotta disagree with that. I have a black blanket appy mare out of my "born solid" mare who later laced and snowflaked, by my absolutely without a doubt solid bay stallion...and even with the real, registered Appaloosas, you commonly get nice big blankets out of solid to coloured matings. Both Quarterhorses and Thoroughbreds are allowable outcrosses to produce registered Appaloosas.

As far as the miniature pedigrees go, to judge colours of ancestors...don't even go there...LOL! There was absolutely no appy in my mare's pedigree either...none! But...there are a LOT of "roans, and "grays" that very likely were appy instead.

 

[HGFarm]

Appies do NOT have to get the gene from both parents- it can be passed on by one of them. I know one person who got a VERY LOUD blanketed colt out of a mare with not much more than characteristics (she had only a few white hairs through her flanks) and a non Appy stud. I know someone else who has also gotten a near leopard out of a non Appy mare and a stallion that ONLY had characteristics. They didnt even realize he had Appy, or was an Appy and were rather shocked at this foal.

Also, I have seen so many Miniatures that are born with Appy characteristics but no coat pattern that are registered as 'solid' instead of Appy. I have purchased many myself that were registered this way because they colored up later.

Folks need to remember that if the foal has at least one Appy parent, and is born with Appy characteristics, they should be registered as Appy. Snowflakes and roans are usually born solid and color later or it's hidden under the baby fuzz. Also, foals born with characteristics are considered 'colored' when it comes to judging a horses offspring produced. Horses with only characteristics ARE Appy and can produce very loud colored and even homozygous foals (when bred to another Appy)

I would want to see pics of your mare's head and I would want to see actual pics of her sire and dam to see if either have characteristics, and to see if they were registered as 'solid' by mistake, or whether one of them is passing on this gene.

Also, characteristics CAN be 'suppressed'. All of my Minis are Appaloosa, but some show very little mottled skin, some a lot.

 

[Sandee]

but she would need to get the genes from both her parents, if neither expresses Appy, I am pretty certain that much has been decided, and she has a solid sire

Gotta disagree with that. I have a black blanket appy mare out of my "born solid" mare who later laced and snowflaked, by my absolutely without a doubt solid bay stallion...and even with the real, registered Appaloosas, you commonly get nice big blankets out of solid to coloured matings. Both Quarterhorses and Thoroughbreds are allowable outcrosses to produce registered Appaloosas.

As far as the miniature pedigrees go, to judge colours of ancestors...don't even go there...LOL! There was absolutely no appy in my mare's pedigree either...none! But...there are a LOT of "roans, and "grays" that very likely were appy instead.

I'll second that! Especially if you are relying on the registration papers for "colors"! My stallion in the avatar shows no outward characteristics that cannot also be attributed to his silver dapple. No sclera, no striped hooves,some mottling on his genitals and his mouth (which didn't show until he was about 2). But he has sired one colt (black spots and all)and one that is now going snowflake at 3 yrs old.