Appy coloring

[zoey829]

It seems like an app bred to an app rarely gives an appy foal. But an app bred to a bay or a black gives you an app. If I am looking to purchase a dark bay or black mare how can I look at her linage to see if she produces an app? Her foaling history is she had an app when bred to an app. But I had a bay mare and she had a bay when bred to an app. Ugh!!! What gives?? Any thoughts???

 

[Magic]

In my experience, many times breeding a loud-colored appy mare to an appy stallion can result in a solid foal, but then again, so can breeding a solid, non-appy mare to an appaloosa stallion.

I've had my best luck getting color by breeding appaloosa-bred mares, but with minimal color, to an appy stallion. It does also depend on the stallion-- some very loud stallions rarely produce color, and others pass on loud appy genes even to foals of no-appy-breeding mares.

Appaloosa breeding is TOUGH. Conformation and movement is of utmost importance to me, but it's sure a nice bonus when I get color too.

 

[Flaxenacres]

Zoey, Its all in the genes. Color is a funny thing. You never now exactly what color you are going to get. But it does help with more appaloosa in the lineage. There are people on here that can explaine it better than me. Lorie

 

[~Lisa~]

While it can be difficult to get the color I would think your best bet would be to make sure one of the apps you are using is a snowcap or a few spot.

I know our few spot mare has always had a appy foal no matter what she was bred to

 

[RobinRTrueJoy]

I have heard people say that a few spot appy gives you the best chances of getting an appy foal.

Robin

 

[Bunnylady]

It seems that the appaloosa pattern is not caused by a single gene, but rather, the interplay between at least two separate genes. If a foal inherits one of those genes, but not the other, it may have some appy characteristics, but won't be spotted. Few spots and snowcaps are (usually) homozygous for at least one of those genes, so a higher percentage of their offspring have spots.

A solid colored animal that has some appaloosa in its family tree is more likely to have one of the required genes than one that has no known app behind it. Sometimes these animals will have the mottled skin, striped hooves, or visible sclera on their eyes to let you know that the gene is there, but not always.

My rabbits taught me that, if there's a particular color or pattern that you want to see from a particular cross, it's going to be the last thing that you'll get! It sounds to me like you are about par for the course.

 

[yellerroseintx]

appys are a funny bunch ......this mare..a true blue roan..has had 8 foals.....4 of which were visible appaloosas ..she has no appy in her background whatsoever....excuse her shedding picture.. she goes thru many changes ..colorwise, almost as much fun as an app..tee hee

better picture of mare

one of her foals...now deceased

my little appy stallions grand father was the sire of the above foal..so, although my boy is low on the color gene being a varnish..I do have my fingers crossed this will produce color...who knows..

 

[Alex]

Is is thought that few spot and snowcap appies, with about 5 spots or less, are homozygous for the appaloosa(lp) gene. I have seen many loud appaloosa stallions that werent either of the above bred to a solid mare and had a solid foal, but few spot stallions bred to solid mares and have leopard appaloosa foals. This is why appy breeders cherish their fewspots and snowcaps. Hope this helps.

 

[ohmt]

Apps are VERY tricky! If you breed a solid colored mare to an appy stallion, there is a 50% chance of getting appy no matter what. There are so many different patterns though that you could end up with loud leopard (only if appy stallion is leopard or has leopard within 3 gen) or just sclera and striped hooves. Your best bet for getting loud appy is breeding a solid/minimally marked appy mare with a few spot. My few spot has only been bred to solids and he has given me leopards, blankets, near leopards, and varnish (some of the varnishes were born with JUST sclera but then developed mottling and varnish their yearling years). The only time he's been bred to an appy i got a gorgeous fewcap filly SO i've been pretty pleased with him.

Here are some examples of how the appy gene can be frustrating!

SOLID silver black mare-By a loud blanketed stallion and out of a silver black mare (sired by a loud leopard)

Silver bay appy filly-out of same mare as above, sired by my few spot

*sorry this is only pic i have...she has big white and brown spots all over her rump

Silver appy filly (no spots, just mottling, sclera, striped hooves)-out of chestnut varnish mare, sired by silver blk few spot

Chestnut snowflake/varnish mare-full sister to silver mare above....born solid:

gets more and more color every day!

Bay Fewcap appy filly-same dam as the last two girls...sire is MY few spot boy

Bay appaloosa (born solid-now has mottling and lots of varnish) filly-sired by my few spot, dam is a SOLID chestnut with ZERO appy breeding

Bay appy filly-FULL sister to above!

Ok and last one I promise! Here is my loud bay blanketed appy colt--out of a black PINTO MARE. Sire is my few spot

Sooo....you never know WHAT you're going to get. But you're best bet is to breed to a few spot! Even then, you may have to wait a year or two to see some color. BUT it comes

 

[zoey829]

Ugh! So interesting. I have a leopard app stallion that has appy breeding top and bottom. All Toyland. I want to breed him to a dark bay mare that has no app but has produced an appy foal with a different appy stallion.

 

[ohmt]

My few spot is 100% Toyland---Toyland is great for producing loud appys because Lauri has been working on her program for years and years and she breeds loud appy to loud appy or loud appy to few spot.

If the stallion ISN'T a few spot though, theres still just a 50% chance of your mare having an appaloosa foal every time she's bred to him. Just because she's had an appy in the past doesn't mean her chances are any higher. No solid color mare would have any higher/lower chance---every one would have that 50% chance. When I breed solid mares to my few spot, I know I'm going to get appy ever time. The guessing is what pattern

 

[zoey829]

These apps are so interesting. When I was talking to Laurie from Toyland she said with her horses if you cant find a few spot or if you cant afford one (most likley). The best bet would be a black or a dark bay when breeding to an appaloosa stallion. That the foal is more likely to pic of the color of the loud app. But I guess the chance are 50- 50. I have seen so many pedigrees when the one parent is bay or black. Very interesting.

 

[ohmt]

haha Laurie only breeds bay and black based horses--most of her horses are homozygous for black. I don't think she has any 'red' horses so she wouldn't really have anything to compare to. I get the same amount of color from my chestnuts as my bays/blacks. My Toyland boy is actually homozygous for black so all of my foals end up black based appy which I LOVE but thats just personal preference.

I lost a loud blanketed appy colt this year (would've ended up near leopard I think..the blanket extended pretty far up his sides)--his sire is my bay near leopard and his dam is a solid chestnut with ZERO appaloosa breeding. Would the colt have been louder if the mare was black/bay....guarantee it wouldn't have made one bit of difference. The reason why you see mostly black/bay solids in appy's pedigrees is because people prefer black appys over the red ones. My black appys sell twice as fast as my red apps do.

 

[Sue_C.]

appys are a funny bunch ......this mare..a true blue roan..has had 8 foals..all black based....4 of which were visible appaloosas..she has no appy in her background whatsoever

I would say from the picture of that mare, she was also appy. A simple true roan is generally roaned all over except the head and legs. Appy roans however, usually start the colour concentration from the shoulders, and across the back like hers is. Besides that...there HAS to be appy in her for her to have passed it on. appy does not "come from no-where" although it can "hide" from those who don't know where to look.

The minis have been so mistakenly colour registered that I take no stock whatsoever in not having any appy, pinto, etc...in their back grounds. That is one reason why I am surprised they can be registered as Pintos. You are not allowed any appy in the Pinto breed, and have to sign saying there is none...but really...who knows with minis, as there are so many pintaloosas bred?

 

[ohmt]

QUOTE appys are a funny bunch ......this mare..a true blue roan..has had 8 foals..all black based....4 of which were visible appaloosas..she has no appy in her background whatsoever

I would say from the picture of that mare, she was also appy. A simple true roan is generally roaned all over except the head and legs. Appy roans however, usually start the colour concentration from the shoulders, and across the back like hers is. Besides that...there HAS to be appy in her for her to have passed it on. appy does not "come from no-where" although it can "hide" from those who don't know where to look.

The minis have been so mistakenly colour registered that I take no stock whatsoever in not having any appy, pinto, etc...in their back grounds. That is one reason why I am surprised they can be registered as Pintos. You are not allowed any appy in the Pinto breed, and have to sign saying there is none...but really...who knows with minis, as there are so many pintaloosas bred?

Pretty sure that mare is just blue roan--i used to have a red roan mare whose roaning was just like that...3 foals that she gave me were roans that were your typical 'roan body, solid head and legs'. That mare doesn't look app to me. And below she says that the stallion she was bred to to produce that foal is app.

I agree with you though on the pedigree thing. I NEVER believe the colors people have listed in my horses pedigrees! My grandparents used to put the wrong colors down...we have 2 silver dapple mares that were listed as palomino and cremello. WHAT? They just didn't know. As for registering a pinto with appy in the background....what are they supposed to be registered as?? A pinto is a pinto is a pinto...no matter if their sire, grandsire, or etc were appy. For the Paint breed its different--Appaloosa has its color breed and registry and then the Paints have their color breed and registry. If you think about, its understandable why they wouldn't want the two intermingled. Miniature horses are not a color breed, therefore it doesn't matter.

 

[Lucky-C-Acres-Minis]

Breeding appies is a "crapshoot", you never know what you're going to get and it's all "luck of the draw" lol Yes, breeding with a snowcap or few spots increases your chance of color, however, they can still throw a "solid" foal, that eventually colors later.. Same could be true for some of the "solid" foals some of you've mentioned from appy breeding, while they may be solid at birth, they could very well color out with age, I've seen some solid apps color out quickly, some 4-5 years down the line and some well into their teens before they start developing their pattern...

 

[Sue_C.]

As for registering a pinto with appy in the background....what are they supposed to be registered as?? A pinto is a pinto is a pinto...no matter if their sire, grandsire, or etc were appy. For the Paint breed its different--Appaloosa has its color breed and registry and then the Paints have their color breed and registry. If you think about, its understandable why they wouldn't want the two intermingled. Miniature horses are not a color breed, therefore it doesn't matter.

What I meant is to register them with the PINTO Association as a Pinto, (With a capital "P".) with appy ancesters, is not allowed. That isn't the same as having a "pinto pattern" with the AMHA or AMHR. I have seen the paperwork for the Pinto Association in the past, and appy backgrounds were always prohibited. I imagine perhaps they are not as strict with the miniatures, as the chance that it will affect the Pinto as a "breed" is nil.

 

[Katiean]

Breeding appies is a "crapshoot", you never know what you're going to get and it's all "luck of the draw" lol Yes, breeding with a snowcap or few spots increases your chance of color, however, they can still throw a "solid" foal, that eventually colors later.. Same could be true for some of the "solid" foals some of you've mentioned from appy breeding, while they may be solid at birth, they could very well color out with age, I've seen some solid apps color out quickly, some 4-5 years down the line and some well into their teens before they start developing their pattern...

Just what I was going to say. I have a silver dapple mare with tons of mottling, the eyes, striped hooves...etc. The only white she has is lacing on her back (and yes,it is only lacing). She was bred to a silver bay blanketed stud. The resulting foal had no visible mottling but did have striped hooves. Well when he went pee I saw his mottling. He is now 2 and has white hair all over his body like he is graying. It is also on his face so I would not say it is roaning. Oh and he now has a white spot about the size of a dime on the front of his rear leg just above the hock. I think he has a foal due with my snowcap appy mare so we will see if he throws color.

 

[Lucky-C-Acres-Minis]

Here's an example that was born here..

His sire is a black near leopard splash appaloosa:

His dam is a black tobiano/splash pinto:

At birth he was jet black, no appy characteristics:

By weaning (5 months) he was developing frosting on his hips:

As an early yearling:

And taken today as a late yearling:

What's even more interesting is this is his full sister from this year, no appy characteristics, yet at least and really hoping she doesn't!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

The only real way of increasing the chance of a patterned foal is to use a Fewspot or Snowcap stallion(preferably).

Even then, as with any H/Z animal, even using a leopard patterned mare, you can get minimal characteristics only.

Leopard X Leopard gives you a 50/50 chance of a patterned foal, so does Leopard X Solid.

If you get a solid foal as a result of two patterned parents you are just unlucky, if you get quite a few patterned foals as a result of a Patterned X Solid mating, you are just lucky.

Look at it this way, a stallion has a potential 1,000 foals in his lifetime ( I know it's more but that is a nice round figure!) So, 500 of these foals will be patterned, 500 will be solid.

IF the first 500 are solid, everyone throws up their hands and says the horse never throws pattern!

It is merely the luck of the draw!

And, of course, statistics rarely happen that way, but there is a horse on ECF at the moment that just that has happened with, he is not H/Z but has yet, coincidentally, to throw an unpatterned foal.