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candycar

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Could anyone please tell me what appy pattern(s) My Midnight Lexus is expressing. She seems to be changing drasticly every year. Is this Varnish? Roaning? Snowflake? She is registered as blue roan appy, but we know how that goes....

At 2 years (before I got her)

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at 4 years summer coat (2 months after I got her)

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at 5 years (spring clip)

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and a 5 years summer coat

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any help is greatly appreciated! Thanks
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IMO shes a snowflake. My snowflake mare is almost white now. It is fun watching them change
 
Varnish without a doubt, see how the bony areas are remaining dark while the rest of her coat is going lighter (for example up her nose-bone in this picture below:)

MVC-011F-1.jpg


Varnish is a "fun" to a point, some horses it affects almost immediately while some can take YEARS, but the downside to varnish is that with time it tends to "wipe-out" the other pattern(s) the horse carries and many go white..

Here's my varnish roans:

Black based varnish snowcap mare, was black with snowcap to withers but as you can see has gone mostly white, but still keeps the darker lower legs and the dark areas on her nose like your mare:

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Her 2007 colt, who has gone completely white (except for the nose bone and lower legs), believe he got a "double dose" of varnish as both sire/dam are varnish roan appaloosas:

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Her 2006 colt, a bay varnish snowcap, he too has gone pretty much white:

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One of our stallions, black near leopard varnish appaloosa plus splash (he too is registered as a blue roan, but not possible since neither parent is a roan)

As a foal:

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Now:

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This is one of our 2008 colts, he's sired by the above stallion and is out of a black tobiano/splash mare.,. He was born solid black but with time has developed (what I call) frosting/snowflaking over his hips (and possibly spots!), right now it doesn't appear to be affecting his face so not sure if it's varnish gene coming through or another pattern, hoping by luck he didn't get the varnish gene and he does spot out like his dad, who as you can tell by the pictures above he went from a spotted blanket to full blown near leopard (and keeps getting more and more spots year to year!)

Foal:

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Most recent:

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Hi:

I'm no expert, but at first glance she looks snowflake. As I scroll down as she ages she looks like she may have a combination of both snowflake/varnish, but what I see most is silver dapple.

I have personally seen silvers with mottled skin and also some bird catcher spots (associated with sabino) that can resemble appaloosa with no appaloosa in their breeding. Is there appaloosa in her pedigree?

Dawn
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These are what *I* consider snowflake appies, they look like they've stood out in the snow:

Chestnut mare

Still sticking with your girl being in an intermittent stage of varnish
 
Thank you all so much for the insight. Wow Lucky-C, What changes! how exciting! Dawn, I have never seen her parents, but as listed on her papers they are:

45348A 4G's HF Moon Shadow Apache Sundance grey pinto

NFCS Moon Shadow(AMHA)

4G's Hemlock Brook Spot (AMHA)

10699B Bonnalee of the Rising Sun liver chestnut

UNKN/UNKN

She was bred by Cathy Frost of Mystic Valley Ranch, some day I'm going to go visit her... I would love to know more about where/who her liniage is. Anyone know her family?
 
Well, she definitely has Appy characteristics- white sclera, mottled skin on her nose, etc..... so I am going to say snowflake because of the way the pattern is coming in more in spots that all over in an even growth.

Yes, their color changes are pretty wierd, and fun.

Here is my filly as a weanling, and her as a yearling, starting to show the color change. Underneath, is her dam, who is a varnish roan, and her color changes from about age five til this summer at age 12.

Misty07.jpg


YEARLING:

MistyPixsunset82108.jpg


Her dam at about age five:

Melleft.jpg


AGE 12

Melody.jpg
 
Appy patterns are confusing sometimes. I tend to agree with Dawn that she is a silver dapple...and also agree with Lucky C that she is showing varnish tendencies... BUT, that big chestnut mare has frosting..not snowflakes. Snow flakes look like this :

http://www.bhranch.com/real/nv2yrold.JPG (this is a stock photo from Google, I didn't steal it from anyone's site).

Here is my Wind Walker , who is a silver dapple and looks a lot like your mare (well, except for the rear..LOL!! Just look at the front half! ) And, he also shows varnish tendencies, but has always been this color and he is 13 years old.

WindySmall.jpg
 
Sorry but that mare a link was posted to is a varnish as well, I know the mare well as I've followed her owner's breeding program for years,

Her name is Night Vision, was born a solid black/bay:

Night Vision Weanling

By the time she was two she had the white spots (which is also known as reverse leopard by some)

Night Vision 2 years

But ultimately she's a varnish, here she is in 2006:

Night Vision 2006

The one colt of ours that I posted pics of got the white spots on dark coat but within a year has gone white except for the shading on the boney areas, classic varnish..

Another example, ApHC stallion Visualized:

Weanling

Yearling

Two year old

Three Year Old

7 years old and you guessed it, varnish

So still sticking with varnish
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Don't want to hijack the thread but am wondering if this helps or confuses. We have always referred to our stallion as a black silver dapple also pinto. He changes a spot or two each year. The picture is of him at 4 years old (much the same now). You can see he has mottling on his genitilia and what isn't clear is a small of amount of mottling near his lips. No sclerra around his eyes. He gets darker (it seems) each summer; lighter in the winter. The big thing here is that his appy is 5 generations back so we thought - no appy. BUT he throws appy. His first colt appeared to look like him but by 2 had black spots and they got bigger as he turns 3 ( and the mother has no appy in her background).

Point is your horse has more appaloosa appearance than mine. So should we question ALL silver dapples?

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I don't think the horse in the subject of the thread is silver dapple. He is obviously black based, and he may very well carry silver, but it is quite obvious that he carries appy patterns. I am not familiar with appy so am not going to guess what patterns but it's definitely appy.

As far as the previous posting, appy and silver have nothing to do with each other. It's not that we should question silver dapples. It's questioning any horse that has appy characteristics, like the mottling or sclera. Your horse could have had those weather it was silver dapple, black, chestnut or pinto.
 
Great pics Lucky C to show the progression and strange ways the coloring comes in and LOVE the changes on these guys.... The stallion especially- his spots started in the FRONT instead of on his rear, and then he ends up roan with small dark spots... too funny and goes to show, you never know what you will get!! Or when!

From my experience, roan Appies are always born solid, then change with time, and it takes while to get there sometimes.

On my Mini mare Melody, the dam of the filly, she was born solid and you can see took several years to get where she is now. Her brother is like that but with tiny dark spots all over his body with the roaning. Her other brother had bigger spots, on a roan pattern. Out of the several foals she has had, she's had a snowcap, a leopard, a dark one with spots over his rear (but he was roaning out last I heard at about age four) and the rest have been born like her- solid but with the white hairs mixed in with the baby hairs underneath that could not be seen until they were clipped, so I knew they would all color.

Appies can carry more than one pattern as well, so you can have a blanket with spots, but also with a varnish roan pattern, etc.......

It's my understanding that snowcaps usually carry the roaning gene, but I have not seen this so dominant in the full sized or POA's- mostly in the Minis.. ??

Very interesting and sure lots of fun! I have a chestnut colt at home, born with characteristics, but he also has white hairs hiding under his baby coat, so I am sure he will color out some. His dam and granddam did the same.
 
I am fairly new to the wonderful world of appys but I have been told that snowflake is a constant pattern much like leopard. Meaning it will not fade to white although more spots can appear. So if that is true then I would think your mare is a varnish roan.
 
I really need to research more on appaloosa colors!

But whatever your mare is, my stallion (avatar) is the same thing! He was born with no spots other than pinto, then started getting some small white spots all over his body, that looked like the snowflake pattern. Then he began getting a TON of them, they started marbling/mixing together, and now his butt is about completely white, and his front half still has those little spots. So maybe he's a varnish.... aww I won't be able to see his pinto patterns much longer!
 
Thanks for those pictures, Lucky C. Nice that you were following that mare, and interesting to see that she wasn't a true snowflake.

Now it makes me wonder about my 6 yr. old . He was born solid black, but you could see spots all over his rump when the sun hit him just right. Last year, he had one spot in his tail, and this year, he has a dozen quarter sized white spots all over. He doesn't have any roaning yet, but those spots are coming in fast now. I was hoping for a snowflake, but now I just don't know!
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If a black carries silver it will show..right?

I happen to be one of those weird ducks that LOVES varnish roan! LOL! It doesn't really hide the pattern..it IS a pattern and I love how it leaves the dark markings (varnish) on the bony parts.
 
I dont mind the roans either, and you can still get a variety of good color patterns from them. My varnish roan has produced a variety of patterns, including leopard, not just more roans.... It's just one of the unique patterns for an Appy and no two are the same!!
 
The appy showing up in different ways is why I posted my stallion's picture. I was orignially told that silver dapple could also cause (or have) mottling and since his was so tiny that he certainly didn't have appaloosa. He has completely white feet and the only mottling is on his privates and a tiny bit around his lips. No sclera in his eyes; in fact he has the nicest "black" mask on his face in summer.

I guess I'm wondering if the appy people can say if appaloosa can be "hidden" for several generations? His sire is black and white with no appy markings apparent and his dam silver pinto (although registered as grey pinto). The appaloosa is 5 generations back - Orion Light.
 
Sandee, who ever told you that small horses can't have Appy coloration is wrong. There are a lot of small Appy marked minis now. I have one that is 30.25 and another that is 31.50. And, I'm sure there are many under 30".

Your horse has white feet because it has white legs. If you look at the original post, that mare has white feet and dark legs
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. Pintos can have white sclera ,too.
 

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