As long as Im on a roll heres something else

[dannigirl]

One of the things that we do in order to keep our prices up is to geld any colt that is not of the quality needed to produce quality offspring. We then train it to drive and/or carry a saddle so that it will be a fit kids mini. We then spend time with "first time" buyers to help them learn to work with their new "gelding" so that they will not be controlled by the horse. When we first bought minis, the push was for us to get several mares and a stallion so that we could "make money" with our "hobby". This idea is what causes too many back yard breeders and the local paper ads that read "Beautiful pinto stallion/mare for sale--$100" We have many geldings in our barn and never seem to have enough to meet what people want. We do have several yearling studs here that will be geldings as soon as possible and will be pulling carts in a couple of years. I can sell nearly every cart broke gelding I have for $1500 or more depending on size and quality. Whenever I get a call for minis, my first question is "What would you like to do with it when you get it home" If they say it is for breeding, then I ask more questions to find out if they have some sort of breeding program or if they just want a baby to play with. I do get some interesting answers and have talked many buyers out of breeding "just for the baby" (Like kittens and puppys--foals grow up

Angie

 

[Feather1414]

I fully agree there Lyn.

When I was searching for a horse for myself, I was looking for an A division gelding, that was able to show. I didn't care the least bit about what training the horse had, or if they had any show points.

When I heard about Dealer, I didnt really want to go and look, but I figured I would go around teh show anyways. When I saw him, he had a "Grand Champion Gelding" banner haning on his stall. He had that and a reserve. I couldnt beleive it. Then I saw the flyer said $850. I couldnt not bring him home. He was perfect.

Although I did get a GREAT deal, if he were on the saleboard, I probably would have passed him by. I didn't want a pet quality horse, I wanted something that had the ability to be a show horse. I didnt care if he had training or not.

People who want national top ten horses for under 500, they are dreaming.

Well put Lyn, couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[k9mini2]

My husband and I have had exactly this discussion about big horses in general and quarter horses in particular. I thnik all of you who show and do well will generally always have a good market and good prices.

BUt marketing or old time econonics goes to supply and demand, the more miniatures there are or horses in general, the more the prices will decrease assuming there is a limited supply of buyers. (that is where the real debate is who are our future buyers) Like someone said the live 20+ years.

Also the general economy has some effect I would suspect more so on the pet quality or just for fun market. People buy horses in my opinion as a luxury not as a necessity. so if our economy is slow and people don't have disposable income...they can't spend it on our horses...

Long run, though I think the mini has a great chance of staying power in the market as more people buy small acerages in the suburbs and want a horse or two but find it expensive to keep and the find how swee the minis are and easier to keep.

I also think just like in the big horse market, there is room at all levels of quality for people. Not every one wants or can afford a national champion caliber horse, nor can they pay for even a pet out of one of those horses, but they are still good people who just want a pet and will worm it, give it shots, feet and and love it. These people don't spend big bucks on purchasing a horse and don't have 50 they just have one or two. I have no problem with them wanting one for less than $1000 . I can't afford a corvette either, but I still want to drive a car...

:

thats just my theory and simple opinion, don't get all bent out of shape :saludando:

 

[schutzandwhinnies]

I was talking to a friend about this subject and she said something that woke me up even more to the concept of money and horses. She said gosh Amy you have been on the rescue website feedlot page every day for at least a year and have you ever seen a Gypsy Vanner horse, for example, come through there? I thought for a moment and realized her point. The answer is no and I think one of the reasons why is because this breed of horse is so expensive that it limits the purchasers and therefore limits the 2% margin for neglect, misuse, and overpopulation. I am not critizising any certain person, heck I have a hard time even spelling it

: I just think there is a certain amount of responsability of the purchaser of any horse to be realistic about the finacial requirements of the horse and the risks involved finacially if something goes wrong. Not all people breeding horses are doing it for the same reasons and not all people breeding horses are bad or are just in it for the money, so one statement made by one person (me) won't be covering every "for instance" for every breeder or horse owner. Each person will know what critizisim or not they fall under and only they know why they are doing it. It is none of my business anyway, but my opinion is that people should do the math before they purchase an animal just like they do the math before they purchase a car or house or make a decision to have a child. Can they afford it? and Should they?

 

[Chandler@RoyalPalm]

Well I havent read all the post but thought I would like to say a few things... First ask yourself how true is the saying "you get what you pay for?" There are only a few exceptions I have seen to that rule from many years of searching the market for horses... With that in mind, honestly, how do you expect the market to go higher than 500-2000 on all these horses... Maybe the hard fact is thats what there worth? Like I said there are exceptions "sometimes".

Then stop and think there has to be some type of market for people to continue breeding them. Maybe thats the pet market?.... Theres always going to be low selling horses and high selling horses... How about we all focus and spend our time on what market we want to be in and horses to produce. In doing that we will be able to achieve those goals faster than if we worry about everybody elses place in the world. JMHO..... You just cant make people pay more you have MAKE something that would want them to pay more

 

[Songcatcher]

Here's another little twist to this. I have seen ads (more than one) that talk about how great a horse is, how well it and/or its foals have done in showing, how it sold for mega bucks as a yearling/two-year-old/three-year-old, etc. but is now being offered for a tiny fraction of that price. WHAT'S UP??? Either the horse is no longer productive? Injured? Ill? or the market has gone DOWN, DOWN, DOWN.

Also, the Sale Board often has ads where someone is offering to sell a horse at a HUGE loss because they are moving, going to college, taking a new job, etc. You cannot blame someone for wanting to get one at a price where they will not have to take such a loss if they have a change in life circumstances. When someone offers me less than I think a horse is worth or willing to take, I simply say, "Thanks for your offer but I can't let her/him go for that."

I have had a situation where I bought some mares that I decided didn't fit in my breeding program. I wound up selling them for a reasonable price (didn't make a lot, but didn't lose anything on them) to a family that dearly loved them. After about a year, the man died suddenly and the wife decided she just couldn't take care of everything by herself. I have helped her sell those mares, again for a reasonable price where no one got rich and at the same time, didn't lose a lot either (of course, time, effort, and supplies aren't usually taken into the equation).

I have other horses that I simply don't want to sell. I was recently asked to put a price on one of those (the people were looking for pets priced between $500-$1,000 and I had some in their range). I said, "$7,500.oo. Its not worth that, but I really don't want to sell." Their response was, "Really? I thought you would say $10,000.oo." Their response was not in a tacky manner, just really impressed. I guess I had better raise my price.

Bottom line, any object is worth what two people (one with object and one with money) agree it is worth.

My opinions. Take them for what they are worth.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I was talking to a friend about this subject and she said something that woke me up even more to the concept of money and horses. She said gosh Amy you have been on the rescue website feedlot page every day for at least a year and have you ever seen a Gypsy Vanner horse, for example, come through there? I thought for a moment and realized her point. The answer is no and I think one of the reasons why is because this breed of horse is so expensive that it limits the purchasers and therefore limits the 2% margin for neglect, misuse, and overpopulation.

Wow I have to disagree and would bet it is only a short matter of time till you see them there, no breed of horse is immune

I have been to feed lots and seen AMAZING HORSES there of all kinds from the perfectly sound bred to the hilt T/B to the amazing West Pleasure horse to loud colored trail horses many of those horses are sound and would make great riding horses

 

[Petvet]

This subject is a popular one, and I can't help but add my observations. It seems EVERYONE wants to buy low and sell high, and that goes for the established name stables as well as the backyard breeder.

A couple of years ago I had to sell the vast majority of my stock in a hurry due to a couple of family crisis that required nearly all my time.

I advertised my carefully gathered stock at realistic prices (nothing over $2,000 and that included ASPC/AMHR double reg. stock as well as ASPC stock eligilble for AMHR, and some straight AMHR and some straight ASPC.) I recieved interest from some well-known breeding stables, and while some folks were very nice, and satisfactory sales were made, others were frankly rude and told me my horses were overpriced and made excessively low offers - as an example, a couple of hundred dollars for an ASPC/AMHR reg filly of great bloodlines with a modest show record. The person who made this offer had similarly bred colts on her website at that time advertised at a miniimum of $2500.

My favorite is the small ASPC stallion I sold for $500 whose current owner now has had great success (top ten placings at halter as well as driving ) at the AMHR nationals.

So yes, you CAN purchase national quality at a low price, if you find someone in a bind who needs to sell for an actual emergency situation. And I would like to point out, the big breeders sure aren't above such low-priced animals if they can get them. These horses then" become "much more valuable once they belong to a 'name' stable.

I have seen top quality horses standing in backyard breeder's barns, and I have seen poor quality animals I would never consider breeding standing in some very high-priced stables. It is just as much a problem when a name stable breeds a poor quality mare and produces a poor quality foal as it is when the backyard breeder does the same thing. The difference is that most often the foal from the name stable will still command a decent price despite its shortcomings. Sadly, quite often when the backyard breeder produces even that really nice foal, the price it can bring is still low, and they are told "It is the market".

Are there too many miniature horses out there? That seems to be the question everyone wants to ask. Maybe the question should be "Are there too many really good miniatures out there?" The answer to that is - No! We need breeders with a plan for the foals they produce, whether it is to be a halter show animal, a driving animal, or a future breeding animal due to its great bloodlines as well as superior conformation and disposition.

There should always be a market for pet quality animals because miniatures make excellent pets. But we need to find a way to curtail breeding of these pet animals. Perhaps 'non-breeding' papers such as can be issued for AKC dogs would be an answer. I have met too many people who have purchased pet quality animals that have some serious faults (bad bites, locking stifles, you name it) and yet the stallions weren't gelded and came with full registration papers as well as the mares. Their well-meaning new owners breed them and register the offspring, and a new "breeder" is added to the ranks.

Anyway, the market is different depending upon who you are asking and whether you are selling or buying!

Our breed is not the only one in this particular situation. Talk to the Arabian folks!

 

[js1arab]

Well, I'm gonna take the middle road here. I for one can remember the day when an excellent riding horse could be bought for under a thousand easily and a very well broke pony could be had for only a couple hundred. And no I'm not even 40 yet so it hasn't been THAT long ago :bgrin I realize the cost of production has went up along with everything else in this world, but there are just too many factors involved to go around criticizing people for the prices they set. I definately don't see any justification for breeding obviously inferior horses, but one has to be careful in determining what is inferior. I personally love my stallion. Will he ever win top honors in halter...no, although he did go reserve grand at a show once as a jr stallion. But he is somewhere in between styles. He's typier than some of the old style, but not as refined as what wins at halter now. But does that mean I'm wrong to breed him and advertize his foals at less than $1000, personally I don't think I am wrong. There are many people out there who want foal like he is producing. They want something they can learn on and something nice enough to get them started. His foals are quality enough to show at smaller shows and they have excellent temperaments that are great for beginning or youth owners and they have good conformation, just not the typieness to go to the top. Paying top dollar for a horse doesn't mean people will take care of it any better either. I've seen some nice horses that sold for quite a bit of money, but when the new owner didn't show them to their potential of course it became the horses fault and the seller had screwed them. And since their whole purpose was to show off what their money had gotten them, then they could care less about the animal since it didn't live up to their expectations. And if anyone here doesn't think people would do that ...think again. Just go to a race track sometime and see the horses that were bought for several thousands by wealthy people hoping to get even richer and then see how many end up sold for slaughter or end up with a mysteriously broken leg so the owner can recoup some of the cost through insurance.

Also - many things go into determining a top horse. One that stands in my pasture and has me for a handler may not ever go above the local level, but with a trainer, they may even place on a national level. I have seen several horses in the Journal that were listed as HOF, Champion this or that and I'm here to tell ya, I wouldn't own a few of them. I'll take my supposedly average horses anyday. Those breeders and trainers may be getting top dollar, but only because they've managed to convince someone that they and their horses "are somebody"

Again, I don't see the need to be selling $200 horses and yes the minis go through local sales all the time for that and I hate it because many of them may not even be worth that price as they've had not vet care or handling. But I don't see a need for HAVING to pay $2000 for a quality horse either. If someone can get that ...good for them and I love telling my friends what some people get for their minis. But I don't feel I should be condemned for selling mine for less. My goal is to only raise one or two quality foals per year, give them good vet care, good handling and find them excellent homes with people who will do something with them. I also have to consider that my family comes first and until my kids are older, I can not afford the time and money it takes to show and promote my horses to earn the top dollar, but that doesn't make them any less of a horse. OK, I'm sure most have quit reading this if they ever even started so I will shut up, but please remember that not every "mid-market" seller is breeding a "herd" of mares just looking to make a buck. Some of us are truly trying to do the best we can, but are being realistic about our ability to promote to the professional level or to command top dollar.

 

[nicole]

Very well said Lyn. I agree we have alot of people in my area that buy horses for near nothing and think they are going to sell them for lots??? Well think again people. I don't buy cheap horses, you get what you pay for.

I just see this market getting flooded with these $500.00 colts and using these as stallions. O.K what do you think they will produce?? We have a local farm that holds thier own auction every year for they have soo many minis a year. These horses are selling for $100.00 to $700.00 per horse. So our market is getting flooded and there is no way I am going to breed my quality horses and sell them for that price.

This is why I no longer breed. If someone wants quality I will recommend a quality breeder and the reasons why these horses are priced more.

Come on people think of the breed and what we are doing, are you really making money off selling these horses for durt cheap NO! So pay a little more get the quality.

This is why I no longer breed. If someone wants quality I will recommend a quality breeder and the reasons why these horses are priced more.

I wanted to add that these horses being sold in this auction are not gelded and being sold as stallions.

Any horse in my are about 99% are stallions. You rarley see geldings, WHAT A SHAME. I love my geldings, yes the prices here to geld are rediculous, it costs $250.00 to geld, I think this is to high but thats my opinion in fact I will start another thread on prices to geld.

 

[k9mini2]

I see a lot of good points here on this subject. I also agree with someones statement that we should issue non breeding papers. Especially for those farms who want to insure that the pets they sell are just pets.

I also see the occassional mini go through the local horse auction they usually bring from $150 to $350 most are not registered. Despite wether the have papers or not they seem to bring in that range.

Of all the ones I have see over the last couple of years, I know of two family who bought these auction minis. They are well cared for and get lots of attention. BUT what worries me is that they are being bred to produce more unregistered foals.

So even though we might sell without papers or on "non breeding" papers, that doesn't mean they won't be bred.

Gelding your pet colts will help, but until we can find a way to effectively eliminate the pet quality mares from production, the issue is going to be similar to what all the Big horse people are having now too.

My issue with breeding is this, I don't like people being in it "just for the money" saw it too often in dogs and the so called "puppy mills" well we have it in the minis I guess you could call them "mini mills" they just breed minatures usually the tiny if that popular, or a special color it thats popular, what ever is the fad, but they are in it just to make money.

They don't care much about conformation or disposition, rarely handle the horses so most are wild and have limited care. They are cared for well enough to keep them alive and health because they are an investment only. (this isn't aimed at people who breed for a specific color and are trying to breed for good animals but at those who are breeding only for the color or whatever is a good selling point) These people usually make their living or a good bit of their living off of the minis

I don't believe any of the people on this board fit the category above, because my concept of this type breeder is they are not interested in learning more. They will be gone as soon as the prices drop low enough that they aren't making a profit . I can think of one or two breeders in my general area that have lots of mares and breed so so quality out of them every year, they do have other jobs, but have in the past made tidy little supplements to their income from the minis, they produce pets and sell mostly to the pet market locally. They used to get $1500 and up for their foals and are now moaning and groaning over getting $500 but they are aparently still making a profit because they are still breeding

:

If these people had a goal in mind besides profit. Say they wanted to breed a draft type mini to win pulling contests at the local draft horse pull (made up) Or they wanted to produce good quality (not necessarily current show style) appys with good family dispositions and they limited their production to a few mares a year...I wouldn't think they would damage the breed as a whole. It's the ones who produce 20 to 100 foals a year that are all iffy quality that really gripes me...

:

Sadly I suspect some big name farms are not all that far from the above, but they just disquise their "mini mill" will showing a few of the horses. Produce 200 foals a year, but show 2 or 3 .... Compare that to the small breeders who produce 10 foals and show 1???

OK now I've vented...lol :bgrin Again I am not aiming at anyone here, I don't think any of the ones I have in my mind right now ever come to this board and might not even know it exists.