ASPC / AMHR

[Minimor]

Boinky--yes, shoulders too! I thought I'd written shoulders in my list above, but I guess I missed that one out.

Keep in mind I don't have any ASPC registered ponies, mine are strictly AMHR and have been for generations, though with heavy GMB in some of my pedigrees, the pony is still there. Even so, without any ASPC papers, I'm breeding my Minis hot because that's how I like them. They're hot & full of "go" when I'm driving them, but even so they are all tractable, well mannered pets. (And believe me, they are PETS, each & every one of them.) Hot doesn't mean unmanageable or goofy or ill mannered but I do realize that hot isn't for everyone. Some people get along better with plugs. Such is life. I don't do much showing, but I still like 'em hot.

I always laugh when I hear people talk about how hot the Hackney ponies are. Actually they aren't. I've found them to be very good natured, agreeable ponies. Try sticking some ginger up the butt of some Minis and you might get a response that is a little less than agreeable...or for that matter try doing it to yourself & see how calm & quiet you remain

I'm betting that some people would be in rather bad humor about then, and most would probably be considerably less agreeable than the Hackney ponies are under the same circumstances!

 

[Boinky]

Ok i have limited shetland experience but I have one AMHR/ASPC stallion and one ASPR stallion (half shetland half wild crazy HACKNEY)... let me tell you..NEITHER are wild and crazy and both are what most people would love to have for pets or children... The ASPR came to me as a 2 year old COMPLETELY wild..you couldn't touch him or catch him but after some training he calmed right down in no time..that was NOT his personality or in his breeding it was just from being wild....... He is not crazy and stupid..though he does have a few moments like any horse.

I've also been to several large shetland farms and very few of them were "wild" unless they truly were wild from not being handled but not wild because that's their "temperament" Other than for the "wild" ponies that i truly believe people MAKE wild to show better i don't know where the wild pony thing comes from! Most of them are gentle as can be and no real differnce from "mini's" .. the only differnce i see is they are a bit better built as a majority... Honestly i am heading more towards shetland crosses on mini's but NOT because they are "shetland" and it's a fad..but because i truly want my breeding to have better conformation than most horses i see for sale. Not a thing wrong with "pure" mini's..infact most of mine are.. i look for well built ones too but i'll tell you out of the hundreds i look at every week on the saleboard very few mini's for sale are well built or what i like..not much selection or variety there..why bother breeding if it's not to improve conformation and better the "breed"??

lol i agree! I worked at a large hackney breeding farm when i was in college. I liked them in general but MANY were not well trained and difficult to deal with because of that... they were stunning to look at on the eye but a head ache to deal with! we had mares coming in for breeding from all over the country that weren't even halterbroke

!! There were a few that we had in the barn that we worked with frequently and were shown and i loved them. Their stallion was my pal.. we were very bonded and i loved him.i'd have taken him in a heartbeat and still would..... but i always said i probably wouldn't ever own a hackney just because i saw the "badder" side of the breed (ie. people sending out unhalter broken broodmares for us to have to deal with and handle..never pleasant in any breed let alone a slightly more sensitive breed)..LOL i have since changed my mind. after i stopped working there i've wanted a pure hackney. I purchased my ASPR pony because it was about as close to getting a hackney as i could around here..not hackneys in general and not many quality ones at that. He's a love bug other than for when i first got him and he was a wild barely halterbroke 2 year old..LOL I drive him all over town with big logging trucks, kids jumping out ect and he's a sweety and even loves kids and basically usually acts like a gelding How you handle them makes ALL the difference in my opinion and your absolutely RIGHT.. ginger and other not so nice things are usually what makes these "wild crazy" ponies wild and crazy..sure it would make ANYONE crazy. and it happens in most breeds.. happens in arabians, morgans, saddlebreds ect!

 

[skylineminis]

Hmm New breeders I think you have your info wrong and any research you have done wrong as well. This isnt a bunch of "new breeders" these are THE SAME FARMS with years of experience there has not been a onslought of crazed pony people forcing these old mini breeders to own and breed shetlands. I have not yet been accosted by a crazy wild eyed pony breeder telling me I MUST RUIN THE MINIATURE HORSE BREED (which again is a PONY) by breeding my crazy ponies we are a crazed pony cult and MUST RUIN THE BREED and your facts that EVERYTHING shetland is a hackney is again NOT TRUE.

If you dont want to breed or own shetlands dont, if you feel comfortable denying the factual shetland heritage in your minis go right ahead. If you are happy with what you are breeding, showing and looking at every day in your barn then keep doing what you are doing I honestly dont see anyone forcing anyone else to do any different.

THere is no ruining of a height breed as long as the horses measure in .

Sorry you missed the point. I, for one, do realize the miniature horse is actually yesteryears shetland pony. There is no doubt in my mind and never has been. I did not say that the mini's MUST BE RUINED. Nor did I say everything Shetland is Hackney. Those are your words. I said most, even the Classics look like Hackneys and that's because of the Hackney blood that is in them. I also never called anyone a cult.

I also said, the pony breeders (not all because I don't know very many pony breeders if any) remind me of pit bull owners. It's all in how you raise them. That statement gave an out for the tamer Shetlands. I also know that minis are a height breed but, that doesn't mean everything is okay to breed to them. There's an overall picture of what the mini is/was supposed to be, not just a hot show horse.

I have only come across the wild, hot, type because most of them have been seen at shows. I understand that is not a good representitive of the whole breed, but, that's what the general public sees and thinks ponies are like. I do know of someone that did cross minis to Hackneys and abborted that adventure. They were nuts as was told to me. As said, "Not a good thing to cross with." And yes, this was from a show owner/trainer/breeder.

Also, sorry you misunderstood the term, "New breeders". I know it's some of the old timers and everyone is breeding for what wins in the show ring. Again, there's more to life than the show ring.

Like someone else said, I'll stay with the old PLUGS (ex-show Champions) and know I have a safe horse to be around and take out to the public and be good ambassidors for the real miniature horse, Shetland and all.

Hopefully, you will understand this post better and read between the lines.

 

[Buckskin gal]

I really do have to chuckle when these topics come up about minis versus Shetlands. For the most part I have to go along with Ruffian and Skyline because I too was sold on minis because of their nice dispositions. They are not hot nor are they "plugs" and I don't underestand why people can't see that there is an in between disposition that many of us strive for. The "hot" for the most part, is what some want for the show ring but not all of us want something just for the showring. We like a lovely well built mini that is versatile for pleasure at home and uses themselves well without acting "hot" in the ring. There are a lot of Shetlands around our area and they definitely are not as trustworthy as the minis I have been around. I will say I think it is possible that a person could find a "plug" Shetland as well as a "plug" mini and I think there just may be some "hot" minis, too but I just haven't been around any. What is funny is that if anyone seems to deny the shetland blood in miniatures, we are always reminded that they are Shetlands but yet we are told the shetlands have so much better conformation. In reality, I think there are some very poorly conformed Shetlands as there is minis. Not everyone likes the rear ends on many of the shetlands and the rocking horse image is not what many of us like either. I too believe that in shetlands there is a lot of hackney...they show it and thus they are not pure shetland. I do hope people will just strive for what they like and always keep in mind what is best for the horse and not just the show ring because, by now, we should know of all the stupid things that has been done, by breeders, to animals just to get a ribbon. I happen to love the Miniature horses and see some very lovely representatives and do hope they become a breed eventually that will separate them from the Shetlands of today. Most of all, enjoy what you choose to have and always be responsible for what you do produce....if balance and moderation isn't kept in mind, usually there is problems for the animal. JMHO Mary

 

[SweetOpal]

I said most, even the Classics look like Hackneys and that's because of the Hackney blood that is in them.

I There's an overall picture of what the mini is/was supposed to be, not just a hot show horse.

A shetland with hackney blood would not be eligible to be a classic as it would be B papered meaning it would show Modern Division.

I realize that you are wanting the minis that are small and very well suited for just about anything to be what you consider a true mini, but a true mini is anything under 38" in AMHR and 34" in the AMHA regardless of bloodlines, minis are not a bloodline association. I have always said that breeders breed what they like and what they want to see thier horses look like. What I like doesn't necessarily have to be exactly what you like, this is one of those things that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, due to the fact thier are no breed standards other than height.

Jennifer

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

When the miniatures first got seperated from the Shetlands, not as many Hackney crosses had been used as there is now. Most Shetlands you see now at the shows are mostly Hackneys, even the Classic's have Hackney. The today Shetlands are not full bred Shetlands. If they were, they would not be shaped like Hackneys nor would they have the "HOT" attitude that Hackneys have.

Thank you to all the new "Mini Breeders" that are ruining the Miniature Horse. You're doing a bang up job of screwing up a very delightful "breed" of little horse.

I am sorry you think I misunderstood but really I was just going off what you said as quoted above. And do believe I was reading between the lines as well as what you wrote.

I agree with Mary in that I have seen poorly conformed ASPC horses - poorly conformed AMHR and AMHA horses and Poorly conformed ASPC/R horses.

I for one dont think that ASPC papers make the horse more correct, more refined, more hot, more ill tempered or anything of the sort they are papers no more no less having them or disposing of them and selling the horse as AMHR only makes no difference in any of the above.

Of course each horse/pony is judged on its own merit.

I personally dont have any "hot" or wild horses my 10 year old handles each and every one of our horses including the stallions daily.

There are lots of types of horses I like and dont like however I am not sure I would ever say someone choosing to do something different then me is the death of a breed (or doing a bang up job of screwing up a delightful little horse)

Again like them or not no one is forcing anyone to breed anything.. I honestly dont see anything HACKNEY about any Arenosa bred horse ( ponies) and I own a 3/4 Arenosa he is a stallion set to be gelded my 10 yr old daughters horse. She has taught him to sidepass, pivot and jump he is not wild, hot ,mean nor is he anything like a hackney and the Arenosa horses do very well in the show ring including ours.

That said I am not all about showing, I go to shows to have fun and see my friends and enter a few classes in between

I see horses I like and horses I dont and really I just choose to buy them or breed them or not

 

[runamuk]

I also know that minis are a height breed but, that doesn't mean everything is okay to breed to them. There's an overall picture of what the mini is/was supposed to be, not just a hot show horse.

I would love to know exactly what the TYPE is supposed to be? This has long been my biggest beef.....there is NO ideal other than horse like and under a certain height. OH! OH!

so is this the ideal?

or this

or this

or this

or maybe this

or possibly this

I really would like to know WHAT they are SUPPOSED to look like OH! OH!

 

[disneyhorse]

The original minis "came" from the Shetlands... but then the breed got a little unfocused as SIZE became the main breeding concern rather than CONFORMATION.

With the Shetlands, CONFORMATION has always been the main breeding concern, since size doesn't matter as much (papers aren't pulled if your pony goes over show height).

The push to downsize the height of the miniature sacrificed some basic conformation concerns and only now, with height and numbers safely mastered, is conformation the number one concern (as it should be).

People are looking to the Shetlands, who have (generally!) excellent conformation and motion. More miniature horse people are really getting in to driving... when I started ten years ago the driving classes were slim, and now they are packed! This rush to breed for motion and enjoy the driving mini has caused the Shetland blood to be valued.

Now of course, EVERY breed of EVERY animal sees it's stereotypes, yet we should ALL remember that there is going to be a vast range of quality and temperament and personality in animals.

Shetlands are NOT "hot" in general, particularly the Classics. The Modern Shetlands are prone to having more "hot" animals due to how they are selectively trained and bred for that specific temperament. "Hot" generally refers to an animal with lots of energy, and one being very sensitive to stimulus. It should NOT refer to an animal that is hard to handle or poorly mannered. The Moderns have a lot of energy and are very sensitive animals. They need that energy and stamina to perform in the extreme way they were bred to perform. Without the energy and physical stamina and the mindset to HAVE to work, they would be unable to reach the athletic peaks that they are shown at. It does not mean they are airheaded, difficult to handle, or poor mannered.

The miniature horse is a "versatile" horse... marketed as "a horse for everyone." This is why they don't ALL have to look like Quarter horses, they don't ALL have to be dumb or mellow for kids, they don't ALL have to be show animals, they don't ALL have to adhere to anything specific. If someone wants a companion for the elderly, you can probably find that. If a really experienced horseman who used to show Saddlebreds wants to find a flashy hot Park Harness horse, you can probably find that, too.

I don't understand why people have to be so narrow minded that they want to shoot down the current competition. Just because your "style" of mini isn't going to be a National Champion does not make it any less "valuable" or special.

But don't think that putting down those who are looking to the future of the breed and trying to breed for an athletic, beautiful animal is going to make you sound any better.

Andrea

 

[skylineminis]

But don't think that putting down those who are looking to the future of the breed and trying to breed for an athletic, beautiful animal is going to make you sound any better.

Andrea

I'm not trying to sound better or worse. I'm just stating that I FEEL that mixing Hackney blood into the miniature horse is not the thing to do for the betterment of what they are marketed for. If you like the movement of a Hackney, buy a Hackney.

Perfect example: The American Quarter Horse.

This was a breed of horse that was developed by crossing many breeds of horses to get to a small compact animal that was quick and could chase and work cattle.

Todays Quarter Horse, is 17 hands tall on tiny 00 hooves and they can only be used for something to look pretty. There has been so much Thoroughbred blood crossed, that the modern QH doesn't stay sound very long. They break down pretty early in life if they are used for anything but halter classes.

It took the QH Association many years to realize what had gone wrong and now they have the Foundation Quarter Horse Registry to try to keep the real "TYPE and LOOK" of the real American Quarter Horse. The true QH was almost bred out of existance. (Please don't take this litterally. I am using the QH as an example and many QH people are not going to agree with me on this. It's not about QH's, it's about breeding a disappearing type.)

Sure, everyone should breed what they want and like but, in this instance, don't call them miniature horses. Come up with another breed for the extreme movement and push that breed. When someone wants to breed something different, they've come up with a new name and registry for it, such as the Show Pony.

Why not these crossbreds.

Also, in AMHA, it's both a height and a registered breed.

 

[skylineminis]

I would love to know exactly what the TYPE is supposed to be? This has long been my biggest beef.....there is NO ideal other than horse like and under a certain height. OH! OH!

Looking back at pictures from some of my really old Pony Journals, I'd say you just about have the mini well represented as well as the other breeds represented very nicely. My being from Texas, I think that's a really fine QH. Before I saw his name, I guessed it to be a Poco Bueno horse. Sure 'nuff, 'twus.

That's a very nice Hackney and Arabian, and Shetland (can't remember the other breeds you have shown.)

My question to you is, what would that Shetland's top line look like if he was asked to square up? His butt would be way to high for his whithers and he would most likely be camped under. (Guessing now). A lot of the newer "Minis" I see are having to be parked out like the way the Shetlands are shown because their back legs are so long, they can't get their back cannon bones straight up and down without being under themselves. Even the Hackney and the Arabian have their cannon bones squared up. Now maybe that's the new look, looking like rabbits with very long "swan" necks I think those used to be called dinasours! lol. Trying to be funny there.

 

[kaykay]

This has been a heated topic ever since I started coming on Lb LOL

I think the big problem is in general most miniature horse breeders do not understand what the different divisions of pony are and what the different designations on papers mean (for example a B designation like my patches has)

I have classic and foundation ponies that have NO outcrosses to Hackneys. Why is it everytime this subject comes up everyone focuses on Hackney?

I guarantee you if you came to my farm right now you would have a really hard time picking out which ones are aspc/amhr and which ones are amha/amhr or amhr. And I guarantee you you wont find a hot mean tempered pony in the herd.

Jet our aspc foundation/classic pony

Tease our classic ASPC/AMHR filly

Black our foundation class ASPC/AMHR Stallion

 

[Leeana]

I'm not trying to sound better or worse. I'm just stating that I FEEL that mixing Hackney blood into the miniature horse is not the thing to do for the betterment of what they are marketed for. If you like the movement of a Hackney, buy a Hackney.

Hun, i think you missed the point of Andrea's speach

. Just because the 'hackney type' movement as you called it does not apeal to you, maybe it will apeal to someone looking for a fine harness mini or a roadster mini or a single pleasure mini. Andrea's whole post was to show you that the miniature horse has a wide variety of uses and not everyone wants a high strung show horse but SOME DO, and SOME DONT. There really is so little hackney blood (if any!) in the classics and foundations that it would really only make subtile difference when mixed with say a mini. Not if you cross a modern or a modern pleasure to a amha/amhr mini for example, i'd say yes you could prob see that blood in the mini somewhat clearly. But hackney blood eventually would fade out of the pedigree so far down the line .....

Sure, everyone should breed what they want and like but, in this instance, don't call them miniature horses. Come up with another breed for the extreme movement and push that breed. When someone wants to breed something different, they've come up with a new name and registry for it, such as the Show Pony.Why not these crossbreds

Why on earth would those breeders/owners want to make another registry WHEN they would already fit into the AMHR and possible AMHA registry which go on height only

. If the horse makes height, its a miniature ...if those horses 'hackney moving horses' make height, then its still a miniature horse

.

Also, in AMHA, it's both a height and a registered breed.

I believe the AMHA hardships in horses every year every day and they are the same as AMHR and are a height breed only

.

I just wish we all could put our ego's behind us and open up our minds to learning new things instead of pushing them aside, who knows ..maybe we would like them new things

.

I have a classic and a foundation pony, neither move anything like hackneys but they do for the most part have more movement then i see on most the amha/amhr minis. The shetland breed is not at all about hackney movement, it has a wide range of movement infact.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

As of right now I don't own any AMHR/ASPC horses. I would like too since I have decided I don't want to be involved with AMHA as much as I wanted too due to my experience I just had. Anyways, you look in the show ring today, and you have to admit the changes the miniature horse has gone thru, and IMO the shetlands just stands out. I think they bring out some good with the miniature horses confirmation and I also think health.

As far as temperment goes I think you just need to do some research and find that one farm that you like. I have tried doing AMHR/ASPC in the past but I went to the wrong farm and now my 1 AMHR/ASPC horse is 44" tall. Also it did not come with the best attitude at all. However I still have that same "pony" and he is as sweet as can be. It's the way you handle them at the beginning and thru the rest of the horses life depends on his behavior. Same goes true with the miniature horse. So find the right farm, go visit, and see how they handle their horses. The breeders have alot to do about how the horse handles since the breeders are with them since day 1.

As far as shetlands runing the breed, I competely disagree, I think they are helping the breed. If you don't see fit then so be it. You don't have to breed for it. However, don't bash breeders for something they believe in. I do hope I get a AMHR/ASPC horse someday.

 

[wildoak]

Well, I had a long response to this and my computer just ate it LOL. In a nutshell, I think the miniature breed is going in a better direction than it was 10 years ago when anything "pretty" and fertile brought good money, as long as it was small. Conformation is so much more an issue now with the emphasis on performance (both in and out of the show ring). No reason we can't have correct conformation AND a good disposition. I have a Quarter horse background (yes I grew up on the back of one of those bulldog Poco Bueno horses, who btw had teensy little feet that were typical for the bloodline). The Hackneys and the Modern Shetlands don't appeal as much to me personally, but I've seen some Classics that were to die for. I love to drive and appreciate the leggier, more athletic horse. I also love the very small minis, and still have quite a few. It's a treat to me to see a 28 or 30" horse in miniature who is put together well and has presence and personality. I agree it's harder to come by in the small ones, but we have some responsible breeders who are - in my opinion - going in the right direction with them and producing better horses than ever.

Jan

Added - I have not radically changed my breeding program, but I am constantly refining and I hope improving what I breed. I have mares that I thought were wonderful years ago, that I am no longer breeding. I have added some taller mares to cross on my30" stallion. I still get small foals from some of them, but the expectation is for better proportion and overall athleticism regardless of height.

 

[Reble]

thanks for all the responses but? Just wondering? Never know might change our minds. Thanks

1) I have heard a lot of people say changing their breeding programs going more to the taller ones for driving, jumping etc. ? So have you changed?

2) Have been told by breeders that have changed and find the ASPC are more high strong and would be harder for me to handle. Which I thank their honesty. ? Do you find any one can handle ASPC horses?

3) Now do you show in ASPC or just AMHR, and for what reasons do you have them in your breeding program, or is it a trend.

? Why are they in your breeding program? Trend or here to stay?

Just wondering? Never know might change our minds. Thanks

 

[Boinky]

I haven't truly changed my program. i've always liked the larger horses because i'm heavily into driving, even though many of mine are under 34"....have the smaller ones because they had what i WANTED except the size.... PLUS i like the movement on the bigger horses. most of them have BIG horse movement in a little package..THAT is what a mini should be in my opinion not a stubby legged choppy mover. that does nothing for the "horse in a small package" image we are trying to promote with mini's.

Honestly many of hte ASPC ponies i've met almost anyone could handle them..they are not much different than a AMHA/AMHR horse. I think the trick is to find the right one just like with ANY HORSE!

To me I am not in the ASPC horses for the ASPC part of it.. it could be partially "fad" depending on how you look at it..i'm not getting into them because they are "hot" right now but i'm getting into them as a way to refine and change the conformation of my AMHA/AMHR horses and in my eyes we need those outside genes to get that good conformation back that was bred out because people didn't care about anything but small. my goal with the ASPC horses is to get the good conformation into my mini breeding stock that i want which is going to be hard to get in mini's because the gene pool is so large with yucky mini's i'm going ot have to pay a FORTUNE for a nice mini (sure there ARE exceptional and nice mini's out there..... just alot fewer and further between) if i could find one to cross into my bloodlines. I purchased my ASPC/AMHR stallion to cross on my mini mares to enhance on what i have..

 

[slv]

I remember a few years ago telling a friend that the shetlands didn't interest me at all and I would never go in that direction. Well, a friend of mine recently purchased a shetland stallion that I cannot get out of my mind. When I see him, I get the goosebumps all over. He is simply majestic from his conformation to the way he moves to just simply everything about him. Anyway, I can now start to imagine that this could very possibly be a part of my future.

I love going to Getitia's web site and just drooling over what she has produced. Those foals make me just crazy. It appears that I have really been bitten by this bug.

As of now, I only have minis and in various sizes from 28 inches to 36 inches, BUT, I can't help but dream about those shetlands. Sure never thought it would happen to me!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Reble]

rewording my questions?

Boinky

Thank you, would be nice to find out how many more have changed their breeding programs?

Can a newbie handle your horses?

Is it a fad for the miniature breed or do you also show in ASPC?

So the reason is too better the breed to have more leg action and finer in looks?

 

[Boinky]

ok since you reworded that i'll answer again..lol

I have FOUR stallions 2 being amha/amhr and one ASPR and one AMHR/ASPC. ANYONE could handle these boys. I would even go so far as to say children could, however i'm not one that beleives a stallion should ever really be used as a childs horse and i don't have children of my own but am certain even a child could handle them if needed (yep even the hackney cross!).

I would LOVE to show mine on the ASPC circuit but quite frankly i'm not sure i can afford to show both and if it comes down to which one i'd choose i'm going to go with AMHR showing. there aren't many shetland show's around here and the few that i've been to didn't have big turn out.. so not really worth hauling a horse 10 hours to compete against myself so that's another reason i'd choose R over ASPC !!

 

[Boinky]

you know this might sound crazy and i doubt it's a feasible option now BUT i'd love to see the registry split up classes. have say halter classes for various "types". I see A LOT of mini's that could be seriously comepetitive if the judge was looking for a stock horse type horse, or morgan type horse, or saddlebred type horse, ect. I see many (infact have one) that looks just like little morgans, We have more arabian type, ect. Unfortunatly although some of these horses would be perfect examples of their larger "breed" counterparts they don't get looked at because they are a little thicker in places than what the current trend to get arabian look alikes. I would like to see classes that help spotlight those various traits and "breed" diversity, because as we've said not everyone likes one certain type. I"m NOT a stock horse person but would love to see those horses being PROMOTED and exemplified as part of our mini horse breeding programs and give each "type" a chance to shine and be promoted. Maybe someday the miniature horse could be broken down by "breeds" of miniature horse all within one breed..know what i mean? Right now i see alot of people that have a certain "type", although not winning in the show ring, being forced out because they aren't the current "type" that are being bred for. I think they should be encouraged to have their type that could do well and also might appeal to other people.