Bay horse born looking VERY sorrel

[rabbitsfizz]

Michelle it depends on the colours of the sire and dam...I am NO good at percentages but it is not as low as 4, I do know that, and could be as high as 25%...I bred a black to a black and got a Sorrel, in fact that particular black mare thinks she is a kind of reverse order Equine Ford car!!

Any colour you like so long as it isn't Black

We were discussing the other day if Flaxen could affect Bay and I think in a lot of Welsh cases there may be a case- I have seen tons of Welsh Ponies with grey manes and tails on Bay, although it could also be Sabino affecting it and certainly is in the Bay Filly.

Chanda's stallion.....I think he was switched by the Fairies!!!

 

[PaintedMeadows]

Thanks for all of the info everyone. I would love it if she were a silver bay but I think the black is too black to be silver. Sorrel would be fine with me too but it is sooooooo black I was curious. She is my little love and that is the most important thing to me.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

Hey Jane - I was using the statistics off of the Equine Color Calculator. Color Calculator

I honestly haven't a clue how prevalent two bays can produce a red! It wasn't what I expected that's for sure!

But I do have the black x black that produce red! Both parent carry red obviously - LOL!!

Wesco Farms LM Rowdys Anticipation and full sibling LM Rowdys Gemini (double bred Rowdy)

Personally I find equine genetics terribly fun and confusing with the incorrect color calls by the registries, lack of accurate documentation on the different pinto types, etc. and the genetics books not always agreeing!

 

[PaintedMeadows]

Cute babies Michelle. I crossed my tobiano/sabino chestnut mare with my tobiano silver seal brown male and got a solid black filly. Apparantly the chances of solid black out of the combination according to the Animal Genetics color calculator is .52% so you just never know! lol.

 

[ladydoc]

I had a pinto filly born this year looking copper penny sorrel. Here is a foal pic

She is now 6 months old and her mane and tail are getting alot of black in them. I still need to take a picture of her now. Her legs are white all of the way up to her body so no black there to help out. Has anyone experienced this? Do you have foal pictures and adult pictures? Thanks in advance.

I've had the same thing happen and after experience, reading, and genetic testing the best indicator I have found is the fine hairs of the muzzle. I can't tell for sure about your baby pic, but in retrospect mine had very small amount of dark color around the muzzle. It is my understanding that you will not see the black around the muzzle on red based animals. I see many horses with black muzzles probably incorrectly registered as sorrel.

I also agree that your horse most likely carries a sabino gene as it has the sabino chinspot present. It amazes me how the colors can change over the years.

 

[PaintedMeadows]

Ladydoc, here is a closeup of her head. What do you think?

Her mom is sabino so I am pretty sure she carries it as well. Can sabino affect the coloring? Other than the white of course.

 

[Shari]

Maggie has a lot of black in her mane and tail and is a Liver chestnut.

You can see it in her tail in this picture...

She is so weird in her color.. in the photos her mane looks lighter than her coat..but there is a lot of black in there that doesn't show up in the photos.

Will have to go out and take a close up of her mane.

 

[ladydoc]

Ladydoc, here is a closeup of her head. What do you think?

Her mom is sabino so I am pretty sure she carries it as well. Can sabino affect the coloring? Other than the white of course.

Sabino just affects the white color distribution and the chinspot as you can see in your picture is the hallmark of sabino. (Tobiano, splashed white, sabino, overo) The four types of pinto are just that, types of white distribution on the animal. They can exist together or separately. Yours appears to carry tobiano and sabino genes. The black around the muzzle tells me definitely bay verses sorrel. Bay can appear to be very red at times and the muzzle is the only way to distinguish or of course genetic testing.

The base color modifiers cream, silver etc, etc. Could modify the bay, but i would speculate that she is just bay. good luck

 

[Dona]

Ladydoc, here is a closeup of her head. What do you think?

Her mom is sabino so I am pretty sure she carries it as well. Can sabino affect the coloring? Other than the white of course.

Sabino just affects the white color distribution and the chinspot as you can see in your picture is the hallmark of sabino. (Tobiano, splashed white, sabino, overo) The four types of pinto are just that, types of white distribution on the animal. They can exist together or separately. Yours appears to carry tobiano and sabino genes. The black around the muzzle tells me definitely bay verses sorrel. Bay can appear to be very red at times and the muzzle is the only way to distinguish or of course genetic testing.

The base color modifiers cream, silver etc, etc. Could modify the bay, but i would speculate that she is just bay. good luck

For what it's worth......I think the Sabino gene lightens the lower legs of a bay, by the roaning white hairs. I have a bay filly this year who is an obviously Sabino (both parents carry Sabino) and her legs, even after shedding are only a tad bit lighter than her body....yet her mane & tail are very black.

And remember, manes & tails that are affected by the Silver gene can come in all shades.....from silvery-white to very dark gray (almost black).

 

[CheyAut]

Michelle: The color calculators come up with weird percents because they don't take into account the genetic make up of the horses. They are looking at it as the parents could be Ee and Ee, EE and Ee, or EE and EE.

But since your two produced a red, they are both Ee and Ee. That gives a 25% chance for a chestnut baby.

If either parent were EE, there would be zero chance for a chestnut. The fact that either parent could have been that, and that is why the percent on the calculator goes way down.

I have seen one calculator that allows you to input if your horse is Ee vs EE, but you first have to know that info

To the topic of black on the muzzles meaning bay vs chestnut... I'm confused... do you mean hairs, or just the muzzle? I didn't notice black hairs on the horse posted, but maybe I just didn't look good enough? My chestnuts certainly have black skin... (I'm not saying the baby isn't bay... I'm not saying anything, because I've never seen a horse do that hehe)

Day old

Jessi

 

[Shari]

Chestnuts are born with very pink to red skin around the eyes and normally within a week it starts turning black. Theia only took 2 days. A Bay is born with the black around the skin.

Do you have photos of her eyes when she was under a day old?

Theia was a odd colored foal. Both parents are a shade of chestnut.. Maggie is medium dark liver color when she isn't sun faded and Theia's Sire is a Bright red chestnut Tobiano Sabino. Theia had the bright red skin around her eyes when she was born. Her muzzle skin color was and is a soft blk. She was born a bright chestnut.. she shed out her foal coat to what you see below. Can see the light fuzz she was born with to the darker coat she shed out too.

Then After two years, she ended up this shade of Chestnut.

You can see what a major change in her coat color.

 

[WLS]

You have one gorgeous filly. As for color, yes, she looks like a chestnut as a baby. But they can change color many times before they are done. I would register her as a chestnut pinto and worry about her permanent color when you get her permanent papers. I had a bright red colt born three years ago, now he is a three year old gelding and a gorgeous liver chestnut. When comparing his foal photo to his mature photo, you would not believe he was the same horse.

 

[PaintedMeadows]

Thank you everyone! Lots of ideas on this thread. I don't have a picture of her eyes at a day old. She was born in a blizzard and spent the day inside with poor light. I do have this picture of her at a week old if it helps.

 

[Shari]

By a week old the skin around her eyes would of darken. But I agree.. would register her as Chestnut for now.

 

[cowgurl_up]

Ok, I hope I'm not hijacking the thread, but I never noticed it before about the pink skin around the eyes turning black later on if they are born a sorrel! So I went back and looked at pictures of my filly and it is true!!!!!!

About a month old.

 

[ladydoc]

Lots of good comments and only goes to show how difficult it is in the miniatures to determine color. I will just say that I genetically test all my horses and in my experience only, I have never seen a (ee) red based horse with black around the muzzle. I would be interested to hear if anyone has a (ee) horse that has black on the muzzle. I can't find this in the reference books, because most of them were written before genetic testing was available.

I would challenge everyone who has responded to this forum and is obviously interested in color to spend the $25.oo and get the red factor test and we can do a study of our own to further our knowledge. Good luck!

 

[cretahillsgal]

Well, I have an ee tested horse with a black muzzle and black eyeliner. I am not sure exactly how he looked as a newborn as I bought him when he was weaned. It is kind of hard to see because he has such a large blaze that covers most of his muzzle, but the skin around it is black.

This is the youngest picture that I have of him. Not for sure, but I think that he was around 1 week old.

 

[PaintedMeadows]

Once again, thanks for all of the help!! I'll just go with chestnut for now and see how things go.

 

[CheyAut]

Lots of good comments and only goes to show how difficult it is in the miniatures to determine color. I will just say that I genetically test all my horses and in my experience only, I have never seen a (ee) red based horse with black around the muzzle. I would be interested to hear if anyone has a (ee) horse that has black on the muzzle. I can't find this in the reference books, because most of them were written before genetic testing was available.
I would challenge everyone who has responded to this forum and is obviously interested in color to spend the $25.oo and get the red factor test and we can do a study of our own to further our knowledge. Good luck!

All my chestnuts have black on the muzzle.

Unless, of course, you mean the HAIR, in which case, no, chestnuts don't have black HAIR on their muzzles.

Jessi

 

[PaintedMeadows]

Jessi, that second from last picture is HILARIOUS!!!! Oh my gosh I LOVE that picture!! Has that one been on Equusite? Too funny!! Nice horses!!