Biggest question asked and talked about at amhr natls

[kaykay]

Okay i promised i would report back on this issue since i have never been to amhr nationals. I cant tell you how many people asked me this question:

Where is the forum member that said she would put the money up to protest heights in classes??

I got asked this over and over. dont know why everyone asked me lol. but she was no where to be found.

I had a great time at nationals. and thought it was a class act show except for yep you guessed it measuring

Im going to be brutally honest since i always am and say that measuring was a joke. EVERYONE there was talking about it. I was so disappointed to see that the measuring was an issue. I really thought people here were exagerrating about last year, but having seen it myself they were not. It was an issue in almost every class we watched. Some were so tall that I have to say they were too tall to even be amhr registered. Im going to get heat for saying it im sure but im just tellin it like i see it.

No sour grapes here because im very pleased with how my horse did.

We were told by people over and over DONT PROTEST DONT PROTEST or youll be sorry. To me this is just so sad. I cant even imagine how tall the horses will be next year since they all got away with it.

IMO (which is worth nothing lol) amhr is going to have to address this since you cant protest as an exhibitor. They are going to have to crack down on this! I heard that one horse was almost on its knees to measure in as a friend of mine watched them measure him. They said the owner kept pushing its withers down while the steward measured. Why we allow an owner to even touch a horse that is being measured is beyond me.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

If the horse that won was over height the owners have cheated, plain and simple, it is a height registry and a height class.

What is wrong with people??

Don't misunderstand me- we are FAR from getting it right over here!!

But I ma right behind you on this Kay- if measuring is to be done then do it properly.

Or do not do it at all!!

 

[kaykay]

karla this is why i thought long and hard about even posting. I hate to take anything away from the show. But the truth has to be told. I have wracked my brain thinking of how to curb this without an indivual having to take all the heat for it and i truly think it has to be put squarely on amhr's shoulders to stop this.

This problem really affects small farms much more then large ones if you know what i mean. If you are showing in a 34-36" class and your horse measures 35 how in the world can you compete with a 38-39" horse?? you just cant as that horse is going tohave so much more leg then a 35" horse.

The thing that is so funny to me is I was just a little worried about black measuring in. he hit a huge growth spurt and at the last local show measured a little over 35. 36 is the limit for a yearling. At nationals he measured just a bit over 35 again so this is a true measurement. But after watching i guess i had nothing to worry about lol

 

[Mulligans Run]

I totally agree..and am wondering where that person went as well.

I also have a problem with the Hackney pony types that were in the ring. This is not a Pony show - they have a show - it's called Congress. I've been told, and have observed that the pony people show their horses in the weanling and yearling classes and then when they outgrow their AMHR papers they move to the ASPC shows.

In my opinion, if your horse is double registered with AMHR/ASPC like two of mine are, you should pick one registery or the other to show under.

There were far too many "ponies" in this show. I even heard one exhibitor leave the ring saying, "The miniature horses are leaving the ring now." and the person that won with their pony said, "yes, the miniatures should leave."

I thought that the AMHR stood for American MINIATURE HORSE Registery?

And this is not sour grapes on my part as all of my horses placed Grand or Reserve in their classes. I just saw far too many nice horses place behind these ponies and walk away with nothing. I even heard that several people scratched their horses because they felt they couldn't compete with the pony types. That's just sad.

 

[OhHorsePee]

I am so glad you posted this Kay! I am still livid over it! When you know what our horses measured at and the winning horses towered over them you know they were REALLY over the measurement for the class. I know, speaking for myself only, who owned which horse and will make it a point not to buy horses from them. Being only my first year in showing I am disgusted about it. Not saying Legacy would have won anything without the cheating because there were awesome horses that actually fit the measurement allowance for the class. It just would have been nice to see everything be on the up and up at such a special event. Blew my mind! How could it go on for this length of time and not be stopped? It wasn't all of the winners so please don't get me wrong. It's sad when you watch a horse maybe 36 or so inches win a 32" to 34" class. Or a 38" horse win a 34 to 36" class. I just do not understand it! How can anyone respect these people? I can't!!!

And for people not being able to protest because of fear of retaliation is so wrong! Ron and I was talking about it in length last night. He was saying if they have to take blood tests of cows that win at our state fair to make sure they have not received steroids, why couldn't AMHR take steps to ensure there is no cheating? He thought that the judges should measure all winners in the winners circle in front of all of the audience. This might take 30 seconds per horse extra but at least maybe it would stop it all. So sad!

Fran

 

[Minimor]

I've been wondering how the height issue went this year. That's what I said earlier on, after hearing about how measurements were done last year (and my source isn't at all into sour grapes so I believed what I was told) if that is the way they are going to measure then why even bother???

I talked to someone at Nationals yesterday & I wanted to ask about the height protests, but the person was on her cell phone & with roaming charges would have been paying a fortune for the call, so I refrained from asking any questions. I'll have to wait until next week for the scoop!

The thing about AMHR cracking down on the measuring/size rule issue, I'd ask this: Who is AMHR? It is us, the members. If members are afraid to protest heights at a show, especially Nationals, then what can be done? The members can petition the club to "do something" but remember that while many of us want this issue fixed, there are other members--bigger & more powerful than me for sure! :bgrin --that are happy with things just as they are.

And even if a "fix" was voted through somehow, then what? Who enforces it? Obviously the stewards who do the measuring. I posted about that awhile back when LaVern started her thread about protesting. No one here seemed to remember the year when a certain steward did try to enforce exact, correct measurements. She was yelled at, threatened, and totally overruled. It was a very bad scene. It would be worse now, because there are more taller horses now than there were then.

I'd sure like to see this problem fixed; I just don't know how that is going to happen.

 

[kaykay]

really the only way i can think of to fix it is to hire a different outside steward every year for nationals that DOESNT KNOW ANYONE or have any affiliation with amhr in any way. Then if they are threatened it really doesnt matter because they will never see these people again. There is no way a steward that shows/judges/breeds in amhr (and most of them do) can go against these "powers that be" They will pay way too high of a price for it. So I dont even blame the steward.

 

[Cathy_H]

Sounds like one of the same complaints with AMHA doesn't it. Don't apologize for stating the truth - it should be done more often.

different outside steward every year for nationals that DOESNT KNOW ANYONE or have any affiliation with amhr in any way

Sounds good to me - don't know the procedure to get changes made though...................... Something needs to be done before exhibitors head toward the exit again. Curious though as to who was getting measured inaccurately, everyone - ( big & small farms - amateurs & trainers), just a few of the elite, transplanted exhibitors who did this in the A registry, or the long time original R exhibitors............................................ It's a shame that a win does not carry the honor that this placing deserves but instead is given to someone "who sneaked in under the stick"!

: ................ Boils down to the fact that they did only because the measurer allowed it - because AMHR allowed it becaue the exhibitors allowed it.

:

............................................. Added - Next year someone should sit in the measuring area & snap pictures of the horses that were obviously pushed to the ground in order to get in. Take a collection from forum exhibitors & hire someone to do it.

 

[Mulligans Run]

I agree with the different steward each year, but it also needs to be someone who is fully trained in all aspects - including what's allowed. It's easy to get a pony measured in since they stretch out so much, which is not allowed, but I was told it was done. Someone suggested putting up tapes for the chest and butt - the horse had to fit fully within those tapes - no stretching.

I wasn't at the measuring block, but if this did happen it is a shame. I was told that I needed to protest a class that one of my horses was in, but then I was warned by others that I'd be called a sore looser - sour grapes, and I'd be the b**ch on the block. I let it slide and my horse took Reserve to the one in question. It's easy to say that someone should "step up" and do it, but taking that step is hard because of the repurcussions. If things were handed at the time of measuring then there would/should be no question.

 

[user 488]

Kay, I am NOT making light of your topic at all. But as you know this happens YEAR after YEAR after YEAR. It's become a real "YAWNER" as you can go on about what to do and nothing ever gets done. Yes, this will probably turn into a big to do now.....then it dies........then you go to Nationals next year and guess what? Nothing changes. I could have bet my life on this topic coming up the same as I could bet my life that we will hear the same crap after Worlds. I can sit here and give a list of things to rectify the situation but it's a waste of time.

Until ALL you people actually DO something besides post on what should be done....nothing will happen.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Just pay my air fare!!

I know NO-ONE by sight.

I am trained to measure and will take any test you offer.

Yell at me all you want, it will NOT change my mind!!

I do not care WHO I offend!!! (Well, we all know that, anyway!!)

So- get it sorted and I will be there.

I'll even join AMHR!!

 

[kaykay]

well i had never seen it with my own eyes so i guess i was naive. I really did not expect it to be so blatant. I did also see it at AMHA nationals but since i dont show amha i have to leave that one to someone else to handle.

we were given some even stronger words about what happens to protestors then what has been posted here. Im not going to post it as its so disgusting and evil.

I do think I will write up a rule change that says the owner is not allowed to touch the horse while being measured. Dont know how much that will help but it has to help a little bit. Id really like everyone to write to their directors that they are tired of the horses not being measured and they want amhr to do something about it.

Like i said it has to fall on amhr's shoulders as the exhibitors and stewards cant do it. I can see that this show can quickly turn into a trainers show if something isnt done. Its not the small farms doing the cheating i can promise you that. I think its because us little fish just cant imagine going to those lengths to make a horse measure in.

I still think it will never end unless you get a steward not affliated with amhr so no retaliation can take place. It cant be that hard to show someone how to measure a horse.

As for the pony issue yes there were a ton of aspc/amhr horses showing and winning. i myself show them

but the difference is mine are under the height limit. But i did hear a lot of small farms say they cant compete with the ponies and they too are mad that its not longer a miniature horse show. But keep in mind that those of us who do measure correctly those are miniature horses. I totally agree that the ones that are so obviously over 38" should be showing in congress

 

[user 488]

Just pay my air fare!!

I know NO-ONE by sight.

I am trained to measure and will take any test you offer.

Yell at me all you want, it will NOT change my mind!!

I do not care WHO I offend!!! (Well, we all know that, anyway!!)

So- get it sorted and I will be there.

I'll even join AMHR!!

LOL, Jane, I offered the same. It will NOT happen. I would just love to see some "redneck" get in my face and try to intimidate me. If this is what it takes for certain people to win classes it's not much of a win to me.

I still think it will never end unless you get a steward not affliated with amhr so no retaliation can take place. It cant be that hard to show someone how to measure a horse.

Kay you are absolutely right.

You guys need to do some research on how the bigger "more advanced", (for lack of a better word) get things done. It happens by forming committees and coming up with real solutions.

we were given some even stronger words about what happens to protestors then what has been posted here. Im not going to post it as its so disgusting and evil.

And yes, I heard all that nonsense too. Threating horses, threatening people......disgusting. But as long as the majority let this small minority get away with it things will never change. They don't want it to change because the only way they can win is to cheat. It's really kind of a joke that people get railroaded like this.

 

[lvponies]

I thought there was already a rule in place saying that the owner can't touch the horse? Or are they allowed to set them up and then not touch them?

 

[kaykay]

i looked and there is no rule i can find that says you cant touch your horse. amha does have that rule but i guess its not helping them. i totally agree with carol that we cant just sit and around and gripe and never do anything.

so where was the forum member that said she was going to protest??

 

[Jill]

Do you have to have a horse in the ring where you think taller than allowed horses are showing? If NOT, then why type about it here when you were there and could have done something? I'm not trying to be a __________, but I think this kind of talk feeds the flames and does nothing to improve the problem.

 

[OhHorsePee]

I just got off the phone with AMHR about this. Had a lovely talk with Amber. I told her about the fear and intimidation that was going on with this subject. She is mailing me a show evaluation with some extras. I think she was a little shocked to hear about threats and everything else. They can not get an out side steward. Has to be an AMHR steward. If we start this are there people that will stand up and actually tell of their experiences? I am a newbie to it all but will stand for what is right. I did give the name of the individual that is said to be the one that will hurt your horses. That is the only name I gave because I feel if I am told something it should stay with me. This will not get changed if people do not stand up for what is right. Am I scared? Yes! But I am more scared to have someone like that be able to win through threats of violence.

Fran

Jill, why not talk to everyone about it? One person can not fix the problem. The only ones that should be upset with this post are the ones that were in classes they shouldn't have been. And again, not every winner was fraudulently representing their horse. But the ones that were it was so obvious.

 

[spazkat]

really the only way i can think of to fix it is to hire a different outside steward every year for nationals that DOESNT KNOW ANYONE or have any affiliation with amhr in any way. Then if they are threatened it really doesnt matter because they will never see these people again. There is no way a steward that shows/judges/breeds in amhr (and most of them do) can go against these "powers that be" They will pay way too high of a price for it. So I dont even blame the steward.

This simple solution would be for minis to become a part of the USA Equestrain (AHSA)... all their shows use USAE stewards. Of course they do things like measure horses at the withers, and drug test also. The stweards are totally independant of the show, and have much more authority on rulings than AMHR stweards do.

 

[Minimor]

Jill--yes, in order to protest you have to have a horse in the class with the one you want to protest.

That would be my concern--retaliation against my horse. As long as I had a horse in the barn at the show grounds I would not protest against these people.

Where was LaVern? Considering the threats issued by these people, perhaps after word of her posts here got around....someone threatened her before she left for the show? :new_shocked: I have no idea, but I can see that being a possibility. I suspect that when she posted about protesting she was expecting retaliation in the form of being shunned by certain people, and having her horses not place at the next show she went to. I don't know if she would have been expecting threats against herself and her horses.

Yes, what will happen if this all doesn't change is many of the little people will stay home and this will become a trainers show.

It's a shame that cheating and threats of violence brings rewards.

 

[Jill]

It seems like every year this thread takes place. It doesn't do any good nor should it. If people see a problem happening, and were THERE to see it, seems to me the place to "talk" about it is at the show with those who are in charge.

I'm annoyed and I'm sure that MY horse was not one who had any issues with his measuring.