Black + Cream + Silver + Appaloosa + Roan?

[Tremor]

I have always been confused when it came to my "silver black" minis.

The sire (sold): http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/dagnillos+crown+jewels

He is registered as Grey on AMHR and Grullo on AMHA. Neither is correct. He's a black appaloosa...obviously. I have met his dam. She is a silver sabino? mare. Very beautiful. Sire is a supposed black pinto? No pictures that I know of. HOWEVER, the sire does have Roan Ranger close in his lines.

Dam (still owned by us): http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bl+hooten+hollows+bow+tie

She is registered as Cremello on AMHR. She IS cremello. Blue eyes. White hooves. Pink skin. No black what-so ever. Sire is a smokey black (registered as black but not possible) pinto and dam is palomino pinto. No pictures of either.

Offspring: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/pete15

This is our 2 year old gelding (Just clipped for a show on Saturday and another on the 20th!) Pete. Not yet registered AMHR but will be. I've been too preoccupied money wise lately to shell out the money.

He has appaloosa spots. He also has appaloosa mottling on his genitals (only underneath his tail at the moment) and on his nose (Just now coming in!)

The only reason that I was thinking roan was because another person (a member on here and a friend on FB) mentioned that she thought our ex-stallion (sold) was roan. Not appaloosa. (However he is. He's also thrown appaloosa foals from non-appaloosa bred mares.) It is possible. The stallion did have a relative with roan. He also had a darker head and legs than his body. So does this gelding (head at least)

Questions:

1. Was the stallion roan?

2. Is the 2 year old roan?

3. Can horses be silver and not have dapples?

I ask the 3rd question for 3 reasons.

-The stallion didn't have dapples

-His 2 year old son doesn't have dapples.

-Nor does his 2 year old daughter who we thought was silver. (I'm thinking she's only a black appaloosa with sabino roaning. LOTS of sabino actually. lol.)

The gelding needs his hooves trimmed. He's due for a trim this Friday btw which is when I'm planning on having them done.

He certainly is the poster child for perfect conformation isn't he? NOT!

Feel free to suggest hints on what I can do with him in the future. He has a pretty good trot surprisingly and we're learning how to pivot for showmanship. (YES. We. lol. I've never taught a horse to pivot!) I'd love to train him how to drive this fall (ground driving only) or next spring; but I'm not sure his back would withstand the pressure. etc.

 

[Maple Hollow Farm]

Well I personally do not think the stallion was roan but I also do not think he is black either, silver black yes, regular black no. Definitely appy though. The reason I say no to roan is that while he does have some darker spots on his head and legs that can be typical with appy roaning too but he has too much roaning still on his head to be a roan, the head should be solid and if you look at his cheeks and forehead, there is too much coloring there.

The colt is same, too much roaning on head and legs to be a roan. I would say he is just carrying the appy and that is causing the roaning.

Silvers do not have to have dapples, there are many different shades of silver just like there are many different shades of the other colors.

Have you worked with him on Halter Obstacle, that is a great class for fun and to show that a horse has a good mind. Work on sidepass, pivot, trotting over logs, groundtie, and anything else you can think of! As for driving I would think as long as you make sure and have a proper fitting harness and well balanced cart, it wouldnt hurt to train him to drive, if it seems to bother him you can always stop but I wouldnt think it would put that much strain on his back as long as worked into it gradually just like any other horse.

Hope this helps some and just my opinions, others I am sure will have more input

 

[Mona]

Yep, just like Melinda said.

 

[ohmt]

Not roan, varnish and sabino. I am not completely convinced that they are silver. Appy and sabino both can give an almost silvery appearance on their own so combined could certainly do that as well.

 

[Tremor]

I must say this is a depressing escapade. lol. There are nearly NO horses that resemble him. I've been looking for two years now! But of course minis just have to have their own rules! lol.

NOTE: Yes, I really *could* test him...but there isn't any reason for me to do so. Plus, I have more important things to spend my money on than to test a gelding.

Not to mention that Pete has gone through SO many phases.

foal:

Yearling (not clipped)

Yearling (Clipped. Month after one above)

Yearling (Growing Winter fur)

Two year old (winter fur)

He should be this simple. His full sister. Plain Jane palomino.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I do not see Silver, or Roan. I see Sabino, which I think is supplying the "roaning" .

I am not convinced the gelding is Appy, either, although I do know a lot of them are "late bloomers"

 

[ohmt]

Looking at the new pics you posted, i agree that i do not see silver. I believe he is just smokey black sabino appy

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Ah, yes, had not thought of Smoky Black- I agree!! (although I am not convinced on the Appy- I would need to see close ups of the spots!!)

Looked again- I think it is just varnish- my Varnish only filly has a few black spots (and quite vile pink rims to her eyes and a mottled muzzle- I really hope she goes lighter in the body soon as it looks horrid. At least this boy is a paler body colour...)

 

[ohmt]

Aren't those pink rimmed eyes the worst? We have a snowcap mare with black eyes that are pink rimmed. It is awful!

 

[Tremor]

I could see him only being smokey black due to his yearling picture (unclipped in June?) HOWEVER....

his foal picture:

Compared to his FULL brother (2007 colt) who IS smokey black (picture immediately after his birth) :

The same parents had a filly (2006. Her maiden year) who matches Pete exactly color-wise.

In 2009 she had a palomino colt and in 2011 she had a palomino filly.

She has been very consistent with her foaling. I believe she is unable to produce a buckskin (half brother by same sire is unable as well. And she's never produced one either.) so that is out of the question. She's produced five foals. Two fillies, and three colts. That is not including the 2008 colt she miscarried at 6-7 months in January of 2008.

 

[Tremor]

To the person who asked for pictures of his "appy spots" here are some. Unfortunately I don't have any from BEFORE his clip. How disappointing is that?

Here's a picture of his mottling that is just coming in on his nose. I'm not sure if you can see it. Its right above his nostril.

His half brother by the same sire who is five (and a loud appaloosa) just began developing mottling last year. I do have some late bloomers!

 

[ohmt]

Bow is a double dilute therefore all of her foals have at least 1 cream gene. She is not unable to produce buckskin, she just doesn't have agouti herself so bred to a stallion that does, voila! Fixes that problem!

So both of the colts are smokey black, just different shades and I think yhe main reason why is the sabino. The first guy is sabino as well as appy which gives him the steely look. Pacific pintos has a few black sabinos that you would swear are silver, but they are not. It's the sabino. It came from the sire and I believe is the reason why he is the same shade.

 

[Tremor]

I am well aware of the fact that she is a double dilute and will pass on one cream gene to her offspring. I never disputed that. I only disputed the fact that she may be unable to produce a buckskin because she may be aa.

You say that she's unable to anyways. How so? When I use the color calculator and put her as cremello it gives me the option to list her as aa, Aa, or AA. When I do aa it gives me exactly what she's produced. Palomino and smokey black.

 

[ohmt]

Never said you did

It is probable that she does not have agouti, but she is only half of the equation. Crossed with the stallion you had, no, she could not produce a buckskin. Crossed with one that is at least heterozygous agouti, then she could very well produce a buckskin.

 

[horsenut50]

Definately not a roan. A roan will always have a dark head and dark legs with or without chrome. I've seen so many horses that people say are roans when in truth they are grey. Greys will have a head the same color or close to it with their body. Also a roan must have an outwardly roan "phenotype" parent to be a roan. Same with grey and dun. At least one parent must be one in order to have a foal of that body color. No exceptions.