Breeding & locking stifles

[minie812]

I read the posts on the little stallion Einstein with interest. I have never had a dwarf born here and if I had any questions about my little babies I always contacted John Eberth with pics so he could clue me in. I know it is a closed topic so will continue with a question that I have been wanting to ask and to get others "TAKE". We all talk about the dwarf gene and wanting to cull it from our breeding stock, but what about locking stifles? It is suppose to be genetic also? I see some very well know WORLD champion stock producing this trait and still they breed and seems that it is swept under the carpet. Not wanting to name any names cause that 'aint cool but just curious as to what people think about this continueing problem in the minis? Anybody?

 

[disneyhorse]

Yep, locking stifle is definitely a problem as is cryptorchidism or dropping late.

Dwarfism didn't come from the Shetlands but I believe locking stifle does as I've known some famous shetland lines with locking stifle.. I bought a colt prospect from a big name shetland breeder whose stifle locked up... He told me to do the surgery and the horse would be just fine... I simply gave the colt back with no money wanted in return.

Every breed of animal has rampant issues which should be bred out but there's always excuses.

Even here you will always hear "stifles lock in youngsters due to growth spurts or mineral deficiencies" .... "Some colts drop late so just wait it out".... "Dwarfism isn't proven genetically very well so just don't cross the mare back to the same stallion..."

 

[Minimor]

Breeders like to make excuses for locking stifle--a lot of minis do it...he must have been injured....he didn't get the right feed...he didn't got enough exercise...his feet have never been trimmed properly...he grew too fast....those are all common excuses, and those breeders keep on breeding those horses, totally overlooking the fact that many of these horse's have poor stifle conformation. This to me is just So wrong.

 

[minie812]

Thank You BlackDraft. I guess I worry since it is more in the Shetland breed and I wonder with all this cross breeding for the refinement for the minis if we are headed for a mini disaster? By that I mean, as we discuss trying to breed out the dwarfism in the minis are we creating another problem since locking stifles IS an issue that some do not like to discuss and breeders continue to breed this defect.

 

[Minimor]

I'll finish my post above now that I am on my PC...

But first--I would not say that it is MORE in the Shetland breed--there is so much of it in the Minis....Minis that are not off Shetland stock, other than way back in their pedigrees--I suspect that the percentage is much higher in Minis than it is in the Shetlands. I haven't encountered it in either so far, but I've been told of two specific Shetland lines that are known to be prone to stifle issues. With the minis it is much more widespread.

It is easy enough to avoid--educate yourself as to what good hindquarter conformation looks like, and particularly learn what weak stifle conformation looks like. When we were buying our Minis we did our best to pick horses that had good hindquarters, including good stifles...same goes for our Shetlands....and we have not had any stifle issues at all in our horses. Locking stifle is not hereditary, but the conformation that contributes to it is--and so people need to learn to see poor stifle conformation. Breeders need to learn what it looks like, then those that have horses with locking stifle issues need to admit to the fact that their horses have a flaw in their conformation--a very serious flaw--and they need to cull those horses from their breeding programs.

Buyers need to learn to look for poor stifle conformation and refuse to buy those horses that have it. If there weren't people all too willing to buy poor conformation--people would cut back on breeding for it.

 

[Margo_C-T]

I bought two different, and pricey, stallion prospects in my years of breeding. One was a late descender, later sired a dwarf. I never bred him again, did not keep any offspring(luckily, he'd only sired about three when the dwarf arrived, and was NEVER BRED AGAIN here; I donated him to a boys/girls ranch, where breeding wasn't their thing, with full disclosure.

The second one I got at @ 18 mo. of age. Very soon, his bite slowly began to 'go off'. I had his teeth floated, but apparently should have done it a lot sooner. However, he ALSO began to demonstrate locking stifle, both sides.Before he ever had a chance to be bred, I had him gelded, tolk AMHA he'd died, and gave him to my vet's previous vet tech, who lived on a ranch where he could have lots of 'running around'room. So...I guess it could be said that I've 'taken some for the team' in this area. I do firmly believe that neither trait, unless you know the horse's ENTIRE history and know of a specific 'reason'that is provably NOT genetic for any of these characteristics, should ever be 'bred', period. I also would NEVER 'wait for' a 'late descender', nor use one for breeding, ever again.

I did briefly own what was clearly a grade 'classic' shetland mare once who exhibited locking stifles, so yes, it definitely occurs in ponies, and might well have been passed into miniatures from there, IMHO.

Edited to add: Ditto to what Minimor said! Having watched the disasters of breeding for 'single characteristics' in several other horse breeds(QH comes quickly to mind, but there are others), I am alarmed at current trends in miniatures to do just that...breed for one or two 'faddish'(IMO)physical characteristics, while ignoring that there is a WHOLE horse involved! Seeing WAY too many weak rear ends, shallow stifles,'weedy' build...but OH, that LONG, giraffe-like neck....mark my words,breeders will live to regret it.

Margo

 

[minie812]

I think it happens more then most will admit too. When prices were extreme on minis people had alot of money wrapped up with a horse so "By gosh gonna breed it" no matter it has problems. I have been fortunate to have had neither (knock on wood) It just seems that with so many farms dispersing NOW would be the time to reevaluate breeding programs and try to improve for the sake of the future of the minis?

 

[Boss Mare]

I have owned a mare since a weanling at that time she had surgery for locking stifle. She is now 10 and gorgeous and I never had intentions of breeding her and never will.

I also purchased an APHA with a hernia that had surgery as a weanling to repair it. Once I researched it 'could' be genetic I never had intentions to breed her and I sold her with a contract stating she wasn't to be used for breeding.

 

[ohmt]

I never knew it was so prevalent. 30+ yrs and my grandparents and myself have never had one with stifle problems. It's good to bring it up as it's not something I normally ask about when buying. Have not heard of any certain bloodline producing locking stifles, but if there are any, i'd be happy if you'd shoot me a pm so I can be careful in the future.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

It is for sure more wide spread in miniatures IMO. I've dealt with stifle issues in one particular shetland line but that same line is involved with a lot of our miniatures today.

I've had one foal that I bred didn't show stifle issues til she was a yearling. The dam who I used to own doesn't show any evidence of it nor did her next foal but the stallion who I didn't own you couldn't see it either and he performs just fine. So no matter how hard you try it can still show up. I gave this filly away as a pet and the dam is now a show mare who has done great. My one gelding who I currently show he does have stifle issues but since driving you couldn't tell it and I think its noticeable now in his sire's foals.

I've heard lots of the same excuses like disneyhorse said and you have to watch for it just like you watch for a bad bite. I won't deal with stifle problems any more, I was just lucky my gelding does fine without the surgery. But I also think that proper trimming is important especially in foals and don't get them to long. It really affects their travel and can possibly cause issues. But if it comes up every so often and especially locks then you have a stifle case on your hands.

 

[Tremor]

Can somebody please explain what locking stifles are? Maybe are their pictures or videos of them?

 

[minifreishorsefarm]

I bought a 2 yr old colt this last winter for a future breeding stallion. He comes from Buckeroo lines. We bred him to 2 mares this spring, A couple of months later his one hind leg locked up for a couple of days, then it went away. We had him gelded anyway and it has locked up a couple of more times since then, more often now it seems. I am not sure if the breeder knew he had this issue before selling him to me, but I cant use him now. Rather disappointing but he will just be our pet now. I am hoping neither of his foals have any issues. Also got two mares in trade for my awesome driving stallion over the winter. They were both fuzz balls so hard to tell conformation. Only had pics from yearling age on both (they both turned 3 this year) One shed off to have a huge head that looked dwarfish and had an under-bite The other is pretty (and half sister to horse above) and nicely put together other than she is pretty small and narrow hipped/chest so I didnt feel comfortable breeding her, so sold her. Ended up giving the one with the dwarfish head away as a companion. The lady I traded the driving stallion never showed him in driving like she said she would and has recently sold him. To a great driving home thank goodness.

I think its hard to say what you will get out there for sure when you breed and buy from other breeders.

Marsha

 

[Marsha Cassada]

Can somebody please explain what locking stifles are? Maybe are their pictures or videos of them?

You can go to You Tube and see videos of locking stifles. That is what I did this morning, and unfortunately confirmed the condition my new shetland mare has.

 

[Magic Marker Minis]

I have a stallion that does not have locking stifle. I have never seen him drag his back leg, however, when he is thin, his stifle pops. Right now he's got some nice weight on and I only hear the pop every once in a while...

I have been told that nutrition does play a part in stiffle issues. When Casper is at a good weight (nice butt!) his stifle issues go away...

Kari

 

[BSharpRanch]

Go to youtube and search "rusty stifles". It's a little stallion I bought to rehab. I later sold him to a family for their children. There are a few videos, one of the locking and a couple on the exercises he had to do several times a day.

 

[LaVern]

I don't know how anyone can say if there is more locking stifels in one or the other unless you have done a study on it, involving hundreds of horses. And most people don't want to acknowlage that it is herediatry. I do think that it is in both.

My experience with it twenty five years ago was with a pure shetland,( no ASPC papers) Gold Melody Boy top and bottom. Needless to say that stallion was gelded and the three that he produced that year were too. No daughters never showed any signs but they had very short (no angle) pasterns and were very posty straight legged. They were sold as pets also.

I know of top Shetland breeders that think it is okay to fix colts and use them for stallions. But maybe there are miniature breeders that are doing that too.

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

Animals are not made in a factory. Essentially none are perfect. Some errors are seen more often in certain breeds as what selection decisions were made had unintentioned consequences.

Draft horses have a higher incidence of OCD. Friesians get more cancers. Paints and Appaloosas are more susceptible to various eye problems.

Small dogs and miniature cattle have stifle problems also (not locking stifles) as apparently breeding animals to smaller sizes increases the odds of poorer stifles.

I certainly think it is something we should consider when we make breeding decisions, but like most things in life, I don't think it needs to be an all or nothing proposition.

Dr. Taylor

 

[rabbitsfizz]

You could cull every single horse with stifle problems from all breeding programmes and still get horses with stifle problems as it is as much a conformational fault as anything- the conformation is inherited and thus the problem (but you knew that!)

Incidentally, I shall just throw this in now, then don my flame proof suit-

A few years back (well, around fifty if I am honest) the Welsh Section A's over here were shown stretched out.

After a while problems started to show up with weak, long backs, weak, slipping and locking stifles, etc.

In a nutshell most of the problems shown by GSD's that are shown in a weird position too.

The WP&CS banned stretching and the ponies had to be shown "inside the box", which in turn produced the compact, short backed sound little animals we are more used to seeing today.

So- it could be that it is the way of showing in AmShets that is, in turn, encouraging the conformational issues......

 

[Becky]

Right on, Dr Taylor. I coudn't agree with you more!

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

rabbitsfizz,

The reason we pose horses is to cover up conformational faults. Although I prefer the elegant look, sadly too many judges today are fooled by it and choose poorly made horses who show well.

So, although I see your point, I would like to improve judges opinions rather than the way we show.

Dr. Taylor