Breeding wisdom

[attwoode]

I would like to hear from the experienced breeders what they have learned or at least observations that seem to hold true for them in their breeding program. How did you get your best home-bred horses?

Do you breed the two nicest animals regardless of flaws or do you look for complimenting traits?

What have you learned about selecting complimentary traits? Do you have to over-compensate in order to fix a flaw? Does it depend on the type of flaw? Do you breed a mare with low tailset to a stallion that has extremely high tailset, or just one that is ideal? Same for neck set? What about a horse that toes out slightly - (assuming genetic cause rather than trimming)would it make any sense to breed to one that toes in slightly? Do offspring generally take on a trait of one parent or is there usually a blending or compromise of the traits?

Ok,I hope I'm not the only one fascinated by this stuff. If you don't want to admit to being a breeding nerd like me, feel free to message me your thoughts.

 

[Lizzie]

Do you breed the two nicest animals regardless of flaws or do you look for complimenting traits?

Breeding animals should always compliment each other. ie. one should be absolutely correct, where the other lacks. Both possessing the same flaws, will surely be seen in the offspring.

What have you learned about selecting complimentary traits?

This is what works best. Same as above.

Do you have to over-compensate in order to fix a flaw? Does it depend on the type of flaw? Do you breed a mare with low tailset to a stallion that has extremely high tailset, or just one that is ideal? Same for neck set? What about a horse that toes out slightly - (assuming genetic cause rather than trimming)would it make any sense to breed to one that toes in slightly?

 

Never over-compensate. Always breed flaw to correct. Breeding one extreme to the other, seldom gets something in the middle and if by chance it does, that animal will possibly produce one or the other incorrect types, when bred.

Do offspring generally take on a trait of one parent or is there usually a blending or compromise of the traits?

 

Difficult to say really. Certainly some animals are incredibly prepotent and seem to reproduce themselves constantly. This especially with inbred or very closely bred animals. Sometimes of course, you are able to see a bit of both parents in offspring.

 

Lizzie

 

[attwoode]

Thanks Lizzy! Appreciate that you jumped in.

I also got a nice message from another forum member with lots of great information.

 

[Minimor]

Do you breed a mare with low tailset to a stallion that has extremely high tailset, or just one that is ideal? Same for neck set? What about a horse that toes out slightly - (assuming genetic cause rather than trimming)would it make any sense to breed to one that toes in slightly?

I don't have too much time to post tonight, but have to reply to this part.
For the last one....in no way does it make sense to me to compensate for toeing out by breeding the horse to one that toes in!!

Breeding a low set neck to a very high set neck isn't going to give you a neck that is set somewhere in the middle--you might get one that is in between and what you would consider "just right" but that would be luck as much as anything. Don't count on breeding to be an averaging of the sire & dam--it just doesn't work that way. Breeding a mare with a low neck set to a stallion with a very high set neck may result in a foal with a low neck set, or perhaps a high neck set. Multiple breedings of the pair may produce some of each.

Now--if your mare has a low neck, or a low tailset--but your stallion has an upright neck...or a high tail set....or both--IF he is a result of a line breeding program and those characteristics have been set by breeding--then you can be much more certain that the foal out of your low headed, low tailset mare is going to come out looking more like the sire. Be careful, though, it's just as easy to 'set' the poor traits, meaning that the poorer quality individual could have the strongest genetics, ensuring that the foal is likely to come out looking like that poorer parent.

 

[Riverrose28]

Well some might call me crazy,but I'm a leg person, my stallions and mares must have straight legs. No toeing out, and it's a big no no to toe in, slightly cow hocked in a mare, maybe, but I don't have any. Stallions must be as close to perfect as possable, no animal is perfect. Stallions should be promoted, shown and have a great pedigree. Mares are 50% of your breeding program at the very least. A good brood mare is worth her weight in gold. I will only bred a refined mare to a refined stallion, but will breed a refined stallion to a more stocky mare. One of my mares looks like a pot belly pig, no joke, but she has given me two champions bred to a refined stallion, but when bred to a small stocky stallion, not so good. I like a small head, and I've found that breeding a long headed mare to a small headed stallion is a no no, as it hasn't worked out for me.

Some breeders I'm sure have had better luck. If I have a mare with a longer back, I will breed her to my one stallion and get a better back. As far as tail set, it's a gamble. One of my stllions seems to have get that all have great tail sets, and will flag, one of my others must not be dominate in that regard, becaus I need to breed him always to a mare with a good tail set. I don't breed for color at all! sorry to ramble! Hope this helps a little. Oh I almost forgot about your question on necks, IMO they should both have a good neck set if you plan on haveing show horses otherwise it is a gamble. JMO!

 

[Riverrose28]

sorry for the second post, but I forgot to tell you about disposition, it can carry over, for example: Hubby bought a high strung colt once that only got more so, I had him gelded, he was just too crazy in the head for me to take a chance with breeding.

Also you need to not only take into account your stallion and mare but their sire and mare as well.

 

[kaykay]

I would say that a mare is much more than 50 percent. Probably closer to 80 percent. I think too many do not put enough thought into their mare selection, or give their mares enough credit.

Too many think you can have an excellent stallion and just "okay" mares.

So in a nutshell the biggest thing I learned over the years was pick the absolute best mares you can afford and find.

 

[Lizzie]

I hear you kaykay. I think the thought that a good stallion can overcome anything in a mare, is left over from long ago myths, when they really believed that. However, I still see that on websites today, which absolutely shocks me.

Lizzie

 

[MindyLee]

Heres what I am finding out in breedeing... And will be one who will show you without being scared to show and tell...

I have a beautiful stallion! Small pretty head, straight legs, good hip, good bite, flat short back, nice tail set and a awesome pedigree. I get a lot of wonderful coments at the shows with him. I have bred him to a beautiful mare I have twice now and got 2 fillies from him, 1 in 2009 and the other in 2011. Both fillies born are drop dead gorgous! BUT my 2009 filly grew into a pretty lil mare (which you have seen in person) and started noticing some lil issues that as a breeder, I personally am not liking. Now I love these two gals but both have small hips. Not good for breeding. I was thinking that was what I was seeing, and just had another person reciently confirm my suspsions. I also think my 09 filly's head is a lil longer then I like on a 29" mare. Otherwise everything else is good. On her 2011 full sister, the head is much nicer and prettier BUT I see that small hip on her as well. SOOOOO from here on out after 2 trys, no more crosses from their parents as the future foals dont have what it takes in the breeding shed and would hate for someone to buy them and breed them and in the end run into issues where they may loose the foal, the mare, or both. Now their dam, shes really nice but is the one putting this small hip on these girls. She also has the longer face as well. So as a breeder who is doing my best in the quality department, has faced the facts that sometimes these lil inprofections can be passed even if the stallion is really nice.

I will no longer be breeding this cross and left the momma mare open. I did however breed my stallion to 3 other mares that have way better hips and heads. That way I can see a really nice foal from him that I have bred. He has sired 9 foals prior to coming to me with some WOW eye catchy foals so he has it to produce some nice foals. Soon it will be my turn to prove here in my program as well...

Pic below is my boy as well as the mare he produced the 2 fillys from. The 2 fillys and the 3 other mares whos about to foal out. You can defently see where I made a diff choice in looking at who should produce better future quality horses.

Hope this helps.

 

[Riverdance]

I would say that a mare is much more than 50 percent. Probably closer to 80 percent. I think too many do not put enough thought into their mare selection, or give their mares enough credit.

Too many think you can have an excellent stallion and just "okay" mares.

So in a nutshell the biggest thing I learned over the years was pick the absolute best mares you can afford and find.

I agree 100% with this. The mare power is so important. You may get some decent foals by breeding a mediocre mare to a good stallion. But, good chances are the foals will not be able to produce as good as they may look. There are many top breeders who stallions are doing well and they are getting good money for their foal. They turn around and buy cheap fair quality mares just to keep pumping out the foals and collecting the bucks. Then some of the buyers wonder why the animal they bought can not reproduce themselves.

I say.....look at the dams of the foal you are buying.

If your mare is shallow in the hip, or has a low tail set, let alone toeing in or out, I would sell her and try and buy a better mare. No stallion can correct this forever. Their foals will turn out foals of a poorer quality.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

>>Do you breed the two nicest animals regardless of flaws or do you look for complimenting traits?

If they have the same flaw, no. I tried that at one time, small stallion under 28", mares selected under 30", all nice, but a tad long in the back to height ratio. Not horrible, but ended up with small, pretty long backed minis. Not what I was striving for! So now I tend to be more critical on things like that, and definitely do take into consideration, similar flaws a no-no!

My biggest challenge with the limited breeding I do now is getting the smaller head (that actually has the smaller teeth, not a crowded jaw). That seems to be one of the hardest things to overcome from what I've talked with other Mini breeders.

What have you learned about selecting complimentary traits? Do you have to over-compensate in order to fix a flaw? Does it depend on the type of flaw?

>>You can't over-compensate. If you had super-fabulous stallion, he's not going to correct flaws/faults on mediocre mares. He can improve the overall quality, but likely will be faulted for not siring better than himself, while he wasn't given the opportunity to be used on mares of equal quality.

Small rant - over the years I've seen people promote and breed a totally awesome stallion to mares that are just so-so, or have no pedigree. Go look at the studbooks - Most stallions of quality have long, documented pedigrees, while the mares (usually the distaff line) are 1-3 generations. Pedigree isn't everything, the horse is what you're breeding, but if you start with an unknown, you can end up with ? Too much of a crap shoot, guessing game, imho. Minis have been bred for 30+ years now, DNA/PQ tested since 1996 (AMHA), so there's no excuse to NOT know what you're breeding or if the lines you're using are consistent in what they produce.

I'm not saying don't take a chance on something you think might turn out totally awesome. Over the years I've had some gorgeous foals from 'I think I'll try that'. But study your breeding stock, pedigrees and they're relations to see what does/doesn't cross well and if you can't see any reason it will/won't work, then give it a shot. The information is out there and lots of gorgeous Minis to chose from so there's no excuse for breeding horses with bad legs, weak butt/hips, foaling issues and definitely any sign of dwarfism.

>>Do you breed a mare with low tailset to a stallion that has extremely high tailset, or just one that is ideal?

Tailset is probably my most forgiving trait that I will overlook. Not ignore, but if it doesn't have the pin the tail on the donkey look and actually 'fits' the horses butt/croup (look at the variety in the big horse breed), I will not worry about that as much as I would legs, necks, heads, throat-latch, overall conformation.

>>Same for neck set?

I don't like extremely low neck sets, so do try to avoid those. I had a mare that had a low neck set, two breedings to the same stallion, one the same as hers the other like the sire.

>>What about a horse that toes out slightly - (assuming genetic cause rather than trimming)would it make any sense to breed to one that toes in slightly?

Toeing in/out if its genetic, I don't breed them.

Do offspring generally take on a trait of one parent or is there usually a blending or compromise of the traits?

Depends on the horse. Some are duplicates of one parent or the other. Most are a blend OR resemble a grandparent. I always take the grandparents into consideration. You could have an awesome horse out of a so-so one, and it might be the best it's ever produced while the rest have been so-so. I'd rather see a horse with siblings that are similar and/or better in a consistent look as you're more likely to achieve that look. Personalities - I tend to notice most of my foals get their sire's personality laid back attitude. Not all, but my stallions are total lambs, while I have some mares I think are in constant PMS. One, I had Bonnie Fogg evaluate a few years ago as I know the line to well, and she did tell me it was bad treatment to result in her craziness. None of her foals inherited it fortunately.

 

[attwoode]

Thanks everyone for sharing your wisdom! Feel free to share any ideas - the questions listed were just a few that came off the top of my head to get the conversation started. I know there are years of knowledge in the mini community and I've never really heard anyone talk in detail about how they do their breeding matchups.

Here are a couple more questions to spur discussion:

What flaws can you overlook in an otherwise great horse because they are easy enough to improve with a thoughtful breeding matchup?

Are there any traits that you've found to be closely linked? That is, do you tend to commonly get a long head with a long neck, weak hip with refinement, blocky head with huge hip, etc. You get the idea.

 

[Minimor]

What flaws can you overlook in an otherwise great horse because they are easy enough to improve with a thoughtful breeding matchup?

The first thing I'll put up with is a plain head--not a big, coarse head with thick nostrils, but a rather plain head. Plain heads don't always breed on, and they can be prettied up with tack (show halter, driving bridle) and a long forelock. Besides....you don't ride/drive the head. A plain head will have no negative effect on athletic ability or movement.
Things I will not put up with--a poor hip, straight shoulder, crooked legs, meaty hocks, round bone, coarseness, weak stifle.

That is, do you tend to commonly get a long head with a long neck, weak hip with refinement, blocky head with huge hip, etc. You get the idea.

There is no reason at all why a long neck would mean long head, and certainly you don't have to expect a weak hip with refinement....I'm not sure if you're meaning "huge hip" in a good way, but I have to say that when you say huge hip, the image that pops into my mind is a horse with a great big bulbous butt! I do think that very often if you have a horse that is overall coarse you will get related conformation--poor hip (short, chopped off rear end with poor angulation, heavy shoulder, thicker neck, big, thick looking head.

 

[kaykay]

What flaws can you overlook in an otherwise great horse because they are easy enough to improve with a thoughtful breeding matchup?

There is no such thing as a perfectly conformed horse. So all of us have to have a set of acceptable and non acceptable faults.

Here are just some off the top of my head.

Not acceptable for breeding:

Locked stifle

Ewe Necked

Roach Back

Head longer than neck

Upturned nostrils (to me this is a dwarf trait)

Overly domed forehead (again to me this is a dwarf trait)

Sickle hocked

Long back (to me dwarf trait)

Bad bite

Small hip

Straight shoulder/pasturns

Acceptable

Mild cow hocks

Mild toeing out

Plain head

Wide throatlatch

mildly coon footed

 

[Bess Kelly]

When all is said and done, it boils down to watching what each animal can and does produce with some amount of consistancy. This is one of the reasons that some seasoned breeders produce better than newer breeders, they have had years to "set" the conformation in their herd and know what to look for in selection of new members. The percentages of really good results are far better within their herds which they have worked long and hard to develop and genetically "set" the best traits.

Seeing the tendancies will help you select the best probable crosses. You know, it's always somewhat of a "crap shoot" in that you cannot guarantee the result, just probable results. Absolutely stay away from using animals that have very obvious flaws for breeding, or who have thrown same, especially as many are known to be hereditary. Know which ones are, why and cull accordingly.

Thus, all conformation factors being good, you may put a stallion who MOST OFTEN throws a lovely head on his foals with a mare whom you wished had/threw a head better than her own. 50/50 shot of improvement. Changes take time. Just look at some of the OLD AMHA/R mags to see the great strides that have happened overy the past 20 yrs. AMAZING.

You have started in the right place, asking questions, checking bloodlines and trying to know "why". Kudos.

 

[Riverdance]

A long neck does not come with a long head, but often comes with what is perceived to be a longer back. A balanced horse will be equal from crown to withers and withers to croup. So, in reality, a freaky long neck will seem to be longer in the back.

A good hip is desirable. My new stallion has a really nice hip with one of the most refined beautiful heads.

Every breeder has things they will forgive in their lines that may be different then other breeders. I will take the longer back to get the freaky long refined necks. Hopefully, combined with my new shorter back, bigger hipped stallion, I should get some nice blending. Longer refined necks with a bigger hip and shorter backs.

To me a head is of utmost importance. It it does not have a beautiful head, the I do not want to own it. Others do not care if the head is plane. I want straight legs, no toeing in or out. When I set them up (which I am training to do without bending over to straighten out legs, I do not want to have to worry about toeing out.

KayKay, long back would have to be accompanied by short legs to be dwarfish. There are many longed back full size horses out there that do not have dwarfism in their breeds. I am willing to accept a longer back to have the longer (what I call freaky long) necks. Not just long necks, but really long necks.

As for locked stifles...well we all have an opinion of those. Sometimes they happen because of an accident, or poor hoof care, many times a foal will lock for a short period of time because they are growing so fast, but an adult.... No way would I breed one of those.

I just know what I like... that is a beautiful headed horse with a naturally long slim refined neck , straight legs (angulated where they need to be angulated), good bite and a large hip. Basically a very well balanced horse. Oh, also an up headed horse with the right shoulder angulation. (of course, if the shoulder angulation is not correct, then the horse is not up headed).

 

[kaykay]

KayKay, long back would have to be accompanied by short legs to be dwarfish.

I agree that this is also a fault in any breed of horse, but we have to be even more careful in miniature horses. A long back is not desirable anyway so to me its even less desirable in a miniature horse. There are a lot of miniatures that only visually express a few "dwarfish" signs and then go on to produce many dwarfs.

I see way too many people excuse long backed mares saying it gives them more room to carry a foal.

But like I said its just my thoughts and opinions

Better safe than sorry.

 

[Minimor]

In actual fact the horse does not need to have a long back in order to have a long neck. Sometimes a well built horse may look long bodied, but when you truly look at the horse’s conformation you realize that he only looks long because he has a long, well angled shoulder and a nice long hip—the back in between those is nice & short—if you divide him into thirds, you find that each third matches each of the other two thirds in length. If the horse can be divided into 3 equal parts—shoulder, back and hip--he is not “long backed”, and I would not call him “long bodied” either. To me, long bodied is a horse that is long through the middle section (back and barrel)—if you divide him into thirds you will find that his middle section is longer than either his shoulder or his hip.

 

[attwoode]

When all is said and done, it boils down to watching what each animal can and does produce with some amount of consistancy. This is one of the reasons that some seasoned breeders produce better than newer breeders, they have had years to "set" the conformation in their herd and know what to look for in selection of new members. The percentages of really good results are far better within their herds which they have worked long and hard to develop and genetically "set" the best traits.

Seeing the tendancies will help you select the best probable crosses. You know, it's always somewhat of a "crap shoot" in that you cannot guarantee the result, just probable results. Absolutely stay away from using animals that have very obvious flaws for breeding, or who have thrown same, especially as many are known to be hereditary. Know which ones are, why and cull accordingly.

Thus, all conformation factors being good, you may put a stallion who MOST OFTEN throws a lovely head on his foals with a mare whom you wished had/threw a head better than her own. 50/50 shot of improvement. Changes take time. Just look at some of the OLD AMHA/R mags to see the great strides that have happened overy the past 20 yrs. AMAZING.

You have started in the right place, asking questions, checking bloodlines and trying to know "why". Kudos.

Great point about looking at their get for positive and negative traits that are consistently produced, rather than just the breeding animal in front of you!

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

A couple of pieces of advice I was given - have the best mares and breed them to better stallions.

The other was have great mares, as you can change out a stallion much easier than your broodmare herd. I do believe this and with the plethora of high quality, well documented pedigrees/breeding history regarding the stallions available now, it's definitely something to consider. Culling and tweaking your herd is an ongoing process.

I would disagree on the long back as a dwarfism trait. None of the research indicates that, that I'm aware of. Is it a desirable trait, no. Theory in the past was it gave the mares more 'room' for foaling, but I don't know that it has been proven over time. And if you look at most sausage shaped dwarfs, if you put the proper leg height on them the sausage-y look goes away.

Dwarfism research AMHA Committee - http://www.amha.org/pdf/memb/DPresentation.pdf

Dwarifsm info - http://wescofarms.com/Miniature%20Horse%20Dwarfism%20phenotypes.