Buyer VS Seller

[Becky]

I read a lot about buyers who buy and are unhappy later with their purchase for various reasons. Most are quick to blame the seller for whatever problem (real or perceived) the horse may have. But is it always the sellers' fault? And is the seller the one who is responsible for 'making it right'?

I sell my horses 'as is' and that's what I mean unless I put something else in writing. I don't use a contract for a cash sale. For those that do use a contract, what all are you guaranteeing and for how long?? So many things come into play after a horse leaves my property, I just don't feel that I can (or should be) be responsible for that horse for life. Nutrition, farrier and vet all play a big role in how a young horse turns out.

If I sell a weanling colt that has two testicles at the time of sale and later doesn't (???), who is responsible?

If I sell a weanling with an even bite and later the bite goes off, who is responsible?

If I sell a weanling that develops some kind of bizarre eye problem (not genetic), who is responsible?

I could go on and on with a list of potential problems, but I think you get the picture.

I certainly welcome all vet checks on any horse a buyer is looking to buy, but once a horse leaves your property, how much are you responsible for?

Your thoughts are welcome!

 

[zoey829]

I am so curious on this one.

A lady came over and complained about a mini she bought from a local guy who has a lot of minis. She had to get surgury on the stiffles (it was not life threatening, but I didnt see the horse). She bought the horse at 4 months old and noticed it locking shortly after. She wanted the seller to pay for half the surgury. He refused. But told her she can exchange this horse up to one yr. Is this fair??? I think a yr return policy is more than fair. She should have gotten the horse vet checked. I mean she noticed this with one month of the purchase.

 

[txminipinto]

I firmly believe that buying horses is a buyer beware situation. Obviously, a reputable breeder will be up front with any KNOWN issues the horse may have. But I feel that once a horse leaves my property it is now solely the buyers responsibility. I also recommend the new horse owners should invest in prepurchase exams for their own insurance.

 

[Reble]

I can see both sides of the problem

When I used to buy and sell Registered Paso Finos.

We told people to have a Vet check done before the horse left the property at their cost.

Now, with Minis seem to be different story and do not know why?

Now, when buying site on seen, you have to believe the person on the other side of the net.

I would try to work with the buyer and we do want people to advertise for us.

First, I would ask what they would like me to do?

Than see if it seems reasonable and work with the buyer.

Now I have done this also with breeding dogs.. but we cannot please everyone.

Also the price comes into effect... and why they where buying my mini?

Every situation can be different

 

[wildoak]

Becky, I agree with you. There are so many things that are beyond your control once the horse leaves your property that unless you give a specific guarantee in writing - or the horse has a problem you were aware of - I think many things are beyond the sellers liability. That said, I do my best to disclose what I do know about the horse, whether he fits the buyers needs, and what I expect of him or her. I've been fortunate and worked with great buyers I think, and to date have never had anyone come back to me with a problem - but of course dealing with people and horses can be unpredictable LOL.

If a buyer truly wants to safeguard their purchase, a pre-purchase exam is the best way to do it. Potentially saves lots of questions down the road if an issue does arise. I don't know that I've ever had a miniature buyer do a pre-purchase though, although it's pretty standard with big horses.

Jan

 

[Mona]

These are good points. I also offer no guarantees on basic sales. If someone wants me to guarantee something specific, it must be covered in the contract. Since I sell my horses through my ads and website, it is right on my sales page that I sell all horses "as is" unless otherwise specifically stated in a contract. I, like you, do not do the contract thing on straight cash sales.

When I am buying, I look at it the same way. If I want something specific, I make sure to ask about it, and also ask if the seller will offer a guarantee for that(those) specific concern(s).

That said, I DO feel the seller should be responsible if questions have been asked and they outright lie about it as a response to the question(s) asked.

 

[RJRMINIS]

[SIZE=12pt]I honestly feel time comes into play in these situations, If within a month or two there is a serious problem after the sale, say locking stifles, off bite, or at anytime in the first 6 months a genetic problem is found, I would offer money back, or replacement. I think that is what a breeder who stands behind what they breed "should do" Now if a year down the road or longer an issue arises, I would not feel it is the breeders responsibility. The problem I find is that the internet makes it to easy to trust in what you think is a reputable breeder. Dealing with people out of state, and having horses transported you are taking a huge risk.....I have learned that lesson the hard way, a couple of times. SO now I make the vow that if I can't make the trip myself to see them in person, then forget it. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]I have watched several of my friends within the last year go through problems both being genetic with horses they bought out of state, and neither breeder wanted to stand behind their animal........and one was within 2 weeks of getting it......Sadly it is a lesson they have to learn from.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]I don't expect a breeder to be responsible for the animal all of it's life, but you better believe if in the first 2 weeks to 2 months something was wrong with one of my foals that I sold I would refund the money or offer a replacement. Or like I said if a genetic problem was found in the first 6 months and proven to me by a vet then I would also offer the same.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]I try to be as honest as I can with anything I sell, but I don't think you can always predict problems that arise, my big thing is the timeframe that it happens in. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Word of advise, if buying out of state, without seeing them in person....make sure there is a contract stating what is covered, spend the extra money to have a pre-purchase exam.....or make sure you can make the trip to see them in person!!!!!!!!

[/SIZE]

 

[Davie]

Becky, like you my horses sell "as is" unless noted in the contract. I do however do a contract even on a CASH SALE--actually a sales receipt that states the horse is being sold "as is" with the following annotations

For instance if it is a mature show horse--if it was shown or not, that it has not disqualifying show faults as stated in the AMHA/AMHR rule books.

If it is a weanling colt and testicles are down it is so noted, if not it is so noted as of the date of sale.

If it is a mature mare--if she has been "Pasture Exposed" or "Ultrasounded", with a breeding certificate but I don't guarantee a live foal--too many "what ifs" in transportating and what if the mare stresses--is that my fault--don't think so.

If breeding stallion, that he has both testicles down and has produced foals.

Here is a good example-- (not my mare so no names mentioned)

A pregnant mare due within 30 days was sold at auction, I did transport her to the sale and cared for her while there, no signs of anything abnormal. Mare sold, went to another state. Within 10 days the mare got sick, (hyperlimemia - (sp)), lost her foal--born alive but died within an hour, and mare almost died. Was the owner responsible???

Buyer did say the mare had been stress by the transport to another state, put on unlimited pasture even though owner had written directions in her packet that said mare had limited pasture exposure, new water, new herd environment, owner had provided grain for transistion to new feed. Buyer wanted the owner to pay for the vet bill of the mare, take the mare back, and give them their money back--the buyer said the mare was sick before they bought her--Don't think so..........didn't happen.

I also invite potential purchasers to have a vet exam prior to sale, but that has only happened once and the yearling colt passed with flying colors. But once that horse sets foot off my place his well-being is out of my hands as I don't kown how the horse will be taken care of.

Someone suggested taking photos of the horse just before it leaves your place and I think that is not a bad idea so that you can have them with the contract.

I try to cover most thing in my contract, but then I also want a happy customer so I guess if something came up later I would try to work with the buyer. My contracts do say that no refunds will be given but will give a farm credit towards another animal.

 

[lvponies]

Buying horses is a "buyer's beware" transaction. You really want to be able to trust that the seller is telling you the truth about the animal, but who knows if the seller is just trying to off load that animal because they are aware of it's problems? The stifles could be locking up before the horse ever leaves the seller's property or they may lock up for the very first time once they get to the buyer's property. I guess, unless there is a contract that specifically addresses the problem, the buyer is out of luck unless the seller, out of the goodness of their heart, chooses to rectify the situation.

 

[minie812]

I just sold a weanling colt to some folks & even though it was a cash sale I had an "as is" contract for them to sign as well as a Photo book for their daughter from birth to present along with info on sire-dam and pedigrees-etc. It did not take me long to do up for them. It had info on care of minis -websites to go to and enough info to get them started as well as good equine vets and I always put in the contract that "vet checks are encouraged" just from personal experience if I buy OOS anymore I go to get my minis so I can see in person (had a few BAD experiences with haulers) I will exchange ONLY if problems are confirmed by two vets AND it is genetic. Who knows what happens to them and how they are treated once gone from my farm?

 

[J&HMinis]

Well, I don’t breed and I don’t do a lot of selling, but here is what I do. I do use a contract for everything. As Becky said, I always sell the horse “as is”. If I’m aware of any issues with the horse, the buyer is made aware and it is included in the contract. I do encourage vet checks; I don’t mind people bringing friends etc. to check the horse either. I want to make sure they are happy with their purchase.

I would say if you are buying a young horse for showing, you should make sure the buyer guarantees the bite and height. A good breeder should stand behind their horse. However, if you are buying a weanling, you need to be aware that it may not end up the way you want; the seller is not responsible for that. They may be willing to work with you to find something you like better, but they are not responsible for taking back or refunding an “ugly” horse.

 

[Marty]

I've been around horses long enough to know that nothing is set in stone and things change and that includes behavioural issues.

My horses are sold "as is" and no guarantees on anything except that they eat drink and poop and have 4 legs.

I'm very upfront and brutally honest about my horses in the first place and I will disclose any information anyone wants. If they don't ask the right questions, I'll notify them of that too to cover my poor fat a $$

 

[hylights]

Hi,

I'm curious, (I'm not nor do i have any plans to breed mini's but I do breed show dogs)

How would environment influence a bite going off? If a bite went off on a weanling purchased as a show animal would the breeder not replace it? I'm curious as this would be something we would be expected to replace on a show dog.

I have seen people totally change the behavior of a horse in less than 2 weeks with bad handling, so I can understand not wanting to replace it,but if I had sold it to them I might make some arrangements to get it back so I could make sure to place it in a better home, How would you people who breed handle that if it were one of your foals?

I'm curious about how the selling of mini's compare to selling puppies as a breeder, but I totally think there is a difference when someone purchases an adult horse, they need to do their homework or pre-purchase.

TX,

Amy

 

[chandab]

My horses are sold "as is" and no guarantees on anything except that they eat drink and poop and have 4 legs.

I haven't sold too many horses, but with the nit-picky things people complain about, it wouldn't fly in the real world. We raise Red Angus cattle, we buy our bulls; the last couple years have been tough ones... Last year, we bought two new bulls, within two weeks one had broken a leg, before he even made it out to pasture to breed cows (bulls fight, its their nature). We had to buy two this year; one became lame and a month later was struck dead by lightning (only consolation was it was the lame bull not the healthy one - they were in the same pasture). Are these incidents the fault of the seller or his problem; NO of coarse they aren't, we are talking living breathing creatures, stuff happens.

 

[Danielle_E.]

Based on the other thread and the topic here I would like everyones opinions on the following and see how people would handle it as far as their opinion of a seller/buyer.

Your purchase a colt for future breeding purposes. You ask all the pertinent questions. You ask about decended testicals, etc. etc. etc. You are assured the animal is fine for this purpose.

You receive a colt with only one descended testical - what would your reaction be?

You purchase a mature stallion and are told that he is 32 inches in height - his AMHA and AMHR papers state he is 32 inches - you measure he is 34" inches, you have someone else measure he is 34", what is your reaction? What re-course do you have?

Your purchase a mare in foal. You are given the particulars of who she is bred to, etc. etc. You decide to purchase the mare based on this information. The foal is born, the foal is not by this stallion and is verifiable by it lets say being an appy when there is no way that an appy could have come fromt the cross of the stallion having been used - you question - you find out that there was another stallion involved - the true sire of the foal - what is your reaction? What re-course do you have?

Your purchase a mare who is represented as 33" and is AMHA/AMHR registered. When you receive the mare she is 36". The AMHA papers were never returned and revoked. There are other foals by this mare that have been registered AMHA/AMHR when in fact they never should have been regisered AMHA - your reaction? What re-course do you have

Your purchase a horse, get all the particulars, pictures sent etc. The animal comes off the trailer and is in very poor body condition, a 3 or 4 on the 1-10 scale - what is your reaction? what re-course do you have?

The reason I am putting up these scenarios was because on the other thread it was mentioned that a buyer might be put on a seller's "difficult" list. What about the above situations, should not the sellers be "flagged" for poor business practices? Should people not be warned of these practices?

I still think we could eliminate potential problems from either buyer or seller if we had a database that was pegged to the sales board here to ensure that "good business practices" were rewarded (seller/buyer) and that poor seller/buyer practices were registered in some form. I know everyone says it's buyer beware but sometimes there is just so much you can do but it still happens even if you take precautions to cover your behind, whether a seller/buyer.

Based on things that have happened to some on this board in the past and more recently I do have a list that I keep of sellers that I will never purchase from because of things they have done to members here. Do some of you sellers have lists of clients that you will never sell to again?

 

[Carolyn R]

Funny in regards to the last post, I just complimented the wonderful couple I bought my stallion from in an email earlier today.

I told her the best advice she gave me when I wanted to buy him she said, "I feel he is everything I say he is, but I want you to see him in person. " We made the 10 hour trip in January to get him, He was everything and more. I was more than happy to drive ten hours home with him in my van.

She and her husband are awesome people, but not everyone is so honest, when sellers know you are coming in person to see the horse they tend to be a little more up front about height and bites.

I feel it is buyer beware, do all you can to find out what you can about a horse, then do some more.

In the end if it was a bum deal, chalk it up to experience and move on.

There are things that can contribute to a bad bite, like getting a tooth knocked out, there are things that can contribute to leg issues like drasticly changing the angle of a hoof too quickly or too much in general.

As a seller there are some people that will not be happy, no matter what you do to please them. Allow vet checks and encourage them, more than just the regular health check supplied with an out of state horse, if they are local allow them to stop in any time between the deposit and the time they pay for the horse, but once the horse leaves the property it is the buyers responability.

As a seller, if the horse is being transported, is it the sellers responsability if the buyer went with a substandard shipper and the horse becomes sick or injured in transit, no.

 

[Danielle_E.]

My point to my post is that many times buyers are at a great distance (much more than 10 hours and international purchase) and it's not feasible to go to the person's place to inspect the horse. You are correct though, getting a vet check should always be done. It would alleviate some of the things that can happen, such as, the example above, the testical issue (which could eventually correct itself but should be reported upfront by the seller). When it comes to a mare bred to a certain stallion and the stallion report has been done and you have a copy of it, I think saying buyer beware in this instance is not adequate nor is it fair to the buyer, if you were buying the mare specifically because the mare is bred to that particularly stallion. In the case of a horse's state being misrepresented as far as body condition, not sure what can be done. If the animal is not crossing borders (international) should the shipper forewarn the buyer at the other end? I realise it's not the shipper's place to have to do this but if you get pictures sent of a "healthy" horse and the horse that arrives is lets say very emaciated, what recourse do you have? Now a vet check in that instance would have prevented that happenening as well. This has not happened to me but to others on this board but because of it I will not buy another mini without having an independant (vet, evaluator) go and check the animal in person for me. We have had a member here purchase an animal, receive the animal sick, the person contacted the seller and told her, the new owner has a vet come out and treat, the animal dies shortly thereafter, an autopsy is done and it's proved that the animal was sick before arriving at it's new home. What do you do???? I am just trying to point out that not always can something be remedied as easily as a visit in person or a vet check (pregnant mare scenario). As I mentioned I do keep a list of reputable breeders that I have dealt with and I also keep a list of those that are not reputable in my eyes and who I find out later have poor business ethics with others as well. Those breeders I will not ever purchase from, or recommend to anyone, or ever sell to them either. I wish there was some kind of merit database tied into the sales pages here where one could check a seller's past transactions, like ebay. One thing we can on top of the vet checks is ask for references from past buyers. Perhaps breeders/sellers should offer this to a potential buyer upfront. Those that have nothing to hide will readily do so, those that won't well.......

 

[lvponies]

I would absolutely Love a "feedback" database on buyers/sellers like Ebay has!!! Unfortunately, I doubt that something like that will ever come to pass.

I've had mostly good experiences with buying horses over the internet, but have had a bad one too. Would love to give praise to those who were honest and ethical and warn potential buyers off of those who were not.

 

[Danielle_E.]

Thanks Lvponies, you and I think alike on this. Now this database would be a two way street. Feedback on the seller and feedback on the purchaser. I just think it would help stop some of the things going on that some people come here and report sometimes. Oh I know sometimes there are things that the buyer is being picky about, I am not talking about that but the more serious issues that crop up here in threads sometimes. There are instances that intentional misrepresentations has happened and it's going unchecked. "Chalk it up to experience" is truly not a way to deal with those types, in my opinion. That is not how the business word should be. There should be a type of "Better Business Bureau" per say so that those that deserve to have their "business ethics" praised do so and those that "mis-represent" purposely (no business ethics) are reported so that others don't fall into the same trap. I know there are more excellent miniature breeders/sellers than the other kind but we should not be complacent with those that give a bad name to breeder/sellers/buyers

 

[lvponies]

Danielle!!

I absolutely agree!!

I guess the thing you would have to take into consideration are potential law suits if someone says something negative against a buyer or seller and it hurts their business. How could such a database protect itself against that?? You would have to take into consideration that some folks may just post negative experiences as a way to hurt others or their business.