Buyer VS Seller

[kaykay]

Really i think the only legal way you could do this is have farms agree to list their farm. Then have a rating system where the farm can be rated 1-5 one being the worst 5 the best. but the problem would be the "bad" farms would probably never agree to be put on so you would only have the good farms participate. its hard to know the answer

 

[lvponies]

The farms who are ethical and honest with nothing to hide, would probably find this a good way of advertising. The ones who chose not to participate, would still be "buyer beware" farms. It could possibly help the "bad farms" clean up their acts so they get on the "good farm" list!!

Edited to add: There could be a 1-5 rating of the farm as both a buyer & a seller.

 

[Jill]

I too wish there was a way to see a rating on a farm/breeder/seller. But, if some kind of a rating system was established, it would have to be made so that only those who actually bought or sold with that farm/breeder/seller could rate it. Otherwise, some people would rate w/o any actual experience.

My concern in buying horses from a distance has more to do with the knowledge of the seller, vs. the honesty only because I think I've been pretty good at figuring out if the person is honest or not before I get serious about buying from them. So far in buying horses, each time I have bought, the horses have happily been what I hoped for or better. There have been lots of pictures, videos and questions asked and answered.

In talking with people, though, I know sometimes "promises" are made in complete faith but the person making them may not really "know" as much as they think. Just remembering all the sales ads I've seen promising show potential or that the horse is 100% correct, when I would think other wise based on what I'm seeing.

 

[lvponies]

Maybe it could be a series of questions that get a 1-5 rating.

Basic ones like:

• How satisfied were you with this transaction?
• Would you do business with this farm again?

More specific questions re the transaction:

• Once you received the horse, was it everything that was promised?
• If not, what aspect of the horse were you displeased with?

1. Size
2. Conformation
3. Bite
4. Show Potential
5. Physical deformity
6. Mare advertised as being bred and ended up open
7. Stallion/colt bought for breeding purposes and unable to fulfill that role

Questions re the buyer or seller

• Do you feel the buyer/seller was ethical & honest during this transaction?
• Do you feel the buyer/seller withheld information about the animal from you? (ok...maybe not this one as it could turn into he said, she said!)
• Would you recommend this buyer/seller to your friends?

I don't know......stuff like that!! 1-5 ratings and simple Y/N questions.

 

[Carolyn R]

I would love a feed back database. I also gladly offer up the office number for the animal clinic my vet belongs to. She marks clearly on all paperwork all the specifics on file, in foal or not, healthy, regular temp, shots , wether they have a good bite/mouth, any problem with teeth when floating them, any injuries she attended to,everything is right there on file. The secretary can even pull the file on any given horse and tell you what was written about it.

I personally take great pride in having my vet tell me that someday when her big horses pass, she's going to get a mini and I am the first person she is going to come to.

All I can say is I can hope everybody would be up front, but it is buyer beware.

 

[Danielle_E.]

Danielle!!

I absolutely agree!!

I guess the thing you would have to take into consideration are potential law suits if someone says something negative against a buyer or seller and it hurts their business. How could such a database protect itself against that?? You would have to take into consideration that some folks may just post negative experiences as a way to hurt others or their business.

Like I said it would have to be sort like ebay, only "customers" that have purchased would be allowed to put a rating and vice versa the seller would but a rating to the buyer, this has to work both ways to be fair. I have bought things from people on ebay that might have one or two disgruntled people but many more are happy. It would give you the option of, lets say you are interested in a particular animal from a particular breeder who may have a negative on them to speak to both parties and make up your own mind if you want to pursue purchasing from that breeder. There are always two sides to every story but this way you could make an informed decision. Many times you might only get one side here on the forum from a buyer and perhaps we don't know the full story. All that sticks in your mind is the one side and that isn't fair either to the breeder. Sometimes a seller has a difficult time with a buyer and they need to have a voice as well. For example perhaps someone buys a horse on payments and the breeder in good faith sends the animal to the buyer (without papers) but the buyer doesn't send the final payments due the seller and the seller is out of money and the horse is out of state or out of country. As I said it's a two way thing. I just think it would help alot of buyers and sellers avoid either or that don't have good business ethics. You are right, breeders would have to be willing to be part of this, people who use the salesboad here at lilbeginnings. Since it's a free site, it would give the salesboard that added integrity to keep all parties honest and upfront with each other.

 

[mmmorgans]

This is a very interesting topic - and some great ideas. A database would be a fantastic idea. I for one have had excellent buying experiences and horrific buying experiences - and would be more than willing to share information on the excellent as well as the horrific.

Many good issues have been mentioned - on who is responsible - but what are the correct answers? I'm not sure that we really know.

 

[Miniv]

I haven't sold too many horses, but with the nit-picky things people complain about, it wouldn't fly in the real world. We raise Red Angus cattle, we buy our bulls; the last couple years have been tough ones... Last year, we bought two new bulls, within two weeks one had broken a leg, before he even made it out to pasture to breed cows (bulls fight, its their nature). We had to buy two this year; one became lame and a month later was struck dead by lightning (only consolation was it was the lame bull not the healthy one - they were in the same pasture). Are these incidents the fault of the seller or his problem; NO of coarse they aren't, we are talking living breathing creatures, stuff happens.

Chandab makes an excellent point.........What if she had blamed the seller for some of these incidents?

Overall, though, I like the idea........but it could be abused. I do know that with e-bay, the rating system has been abused and used as blackmail. A friend of mine with a long time excellent record as a seller was blackmailed by a buyer who wanted to keep the item AND get their money back or she would enter a negative feedback..........The seller had been completely honest with the buyer all in writing.

There must be a way to avoid that type of abuse from happening........Any suggestions?

MA

 

[Danielle_E.]

The things that are mentioned by Chandab I don't think anyone would consider that a mark against a seller. I am talking about thinks like mis-representation of height and I am not talking about 1/2 a inch, or a horse that you get sent pictures of a horse in good health, in good flesh and you have a very thin horse coming off the trailer (mis-representation), you are told in an email the horse has a perfect bite, the horse has a horrible bite, those kinds of things. Of course you would have to have in writting and in your possession the back-up to all of this. Maybe this way more people would ensure to get things in writting and it would help sellers and buyers alike. It's not only buyers that get surprised. I just think people would think twice and their word would mean something (trust) now because they would know that if they use the salesboard here they have to be upfront. Good business practices should be rewarded by giving you more business and bad business practices should not be rewarded at all, whether buyer or seller.

 

[Minimor]

I am talking about thinks like mis-representation of height and I am not talking about 1/2 a inch, or a horse that you get sent pictures of a horse in good health, in good flesh and you have a very thin horse coming off the trailer (mis-representation), you are told in an email the horse has a perfect bite, the horse has a horrible bite, those kinds of things.

How about the person that sends pictures of a horse in good health, sends a horse that is in good health and condition, then later the horse becomes very thin & by then the buyer is angry at the seller over some other issue so claims the horse was in that poor condition when it was delivered to the buyer? (And yes, that has happened--not to me, but I've seen it happen) Or what if a buyer is totally upset that a horse is a mere 1/2 inch over the height the seller claimed the horse to be, and because of that height difference totally slams the seller?
While I agree it would be nice to have a reference site to help determine good and bad sellers (and buyers!) I can also see the huge pitfalls there could be in that sort of site.

To answer the initial question(s) of this thread--I'm not in the business of selling horses, so have very limited experience as a seller. I do have more experience as a buyer & can certainly comment on what I expect of a seller. I don't have a long list of expectations. Firstly, I expect a seller to be honest...let me rephrase that--I always HOPE that a seller will be honest. If I'm looking at a colt as a breeding prospect and ask "does he have both testicles descended" I sincerely hope that if the seller says "yes" that he/she is telling the truth. If they are both there now but disappear a little later I'm not too worried, they will come back. If I'm buying the colt as a gelding & when I get him home & discover that one is missing--I wait. I will wait until they show up & then geld him. If they don't show up & I have to have abdominal surgery done to get the horse gelded, that is my problem--especially if I didn't ask (or check for myself) prior to my purchase. There's no way I'd go to the seller & complain that she should pay for half (or more) of the surgery because I want it done now and can't wait 6 months for a missing testicle to show up....I figure if I can't wait, then I shouldn't buy a colt that isn't fully descended.

Conformation issues--if I buy a horse with a bad stifle, I figure that's my bad. I know what good stifle conformation is and if I buy a horse that has poor stifle conformation and starts locking up 10 days after I bring him/her home, someone give me a good swift kick! I would hope that if the seller knew the horse was locking up that he/she would have said so, but the reality is-- 1)a good many people do not recognize good or bad stifle conformation and so have no clue that the horse is likely to be prone to stifle problems until after the horse starts having obvious problems 2) a certain number of people won't even notice that a horse is have stifle problems unless the problem is very, very serious. A horse could be locking up briefly & then releasing, and there are people who simply wouldn't notice and 3) yes, there are those that will out and out lie These 3 reasons explain why I never take a seller's word for what a horse really looks like/moves like. I've just seen/heard too many people rave about how wonderful/gorgeous/perfect/show quality/fantastic moving/etc a horse is, then when I looked at the horse for myself....UGH. The only opinion I really trust is my own. A good rule--never let yourself be taken in by a sales pitch.

I know there are people out there that will ask for a refund (or partial refund) a full year (or more) after buying the horse, and I really do think that's excessive. If there's something so important to you as a buyer, you should get whatever it is guaranteed in writing. Both testicles descended, height...get it in writing, and also have your contract state exactly what you will get if the horse does go over height or if one testicle never drops...full refund on return of horse? or you keep the horse but get a 50% refund? seller takes the horse back and you get to choose a different one in exchange?

 

[Danielle_E.]

How about the person that sends pictures of a horse in good health, sends a horse that is in good health and condition, then later the horse becomes very thin & by then the buyer is angry at the seller over some other issue so claims the horse was in that poor condition when it was delivered to the buyer? (And yes, that has happened--not to me, but I've seen it happen) Or what if a buyer is totally upset that a horse is a mere 1/2 inch over the height the seller claimed the horse to be, and because of that height difference totally slams the seller?

It stands to reason that the evaluation of the animal for any major issues would have to take place within a reasonable amount of time, not a week or weeks after. more like 48 hours max. That would be the window. You know when a horses is delivered to you whether the animal has a good bite (if that is what was said to you and put in writting), that the horse is in good flesh, like the pictures that you received, that the testicles are down, as you have in writting... I am not talking about someone who waits a week or two and starts making allegations and accusations of having been taken by a seller

I used the example of height in the sense that let's say I buy a mare or stallion that is reported to me to be 33 inches and is AMHR and AMHA registered, I have this in an email from the seller. The animal is delivered and I meaure and find out the animal is 35 3/4. I re-measure over and over.... still get 35 3/4. My entire herd is only AMHA registered, and yet in writting I have the seller stating the animal is 33 inches.... Before a breeder/seller, sells an animal he should not take for granted the height of the animal that may have been measured a year ago, they shoudl measure that animal prior to selling. Because we are a height breed it is something that is important for many. In other breeds it's not an issue but for minis..... Now the above scenario is based on a mature horse, not one that is still growing, so lets say for arguments sake over 3 years of age.

I am just saying common sense should prevail. If lets say someone, a buyer makes some allegation, don't forget the seller would also answer to the "allegation", both sides of the story would be on the database.

This database or whatever form it would take could in the end also help a breeder that someone is alleging this and that. Without it what prevents some disgruntled buyer from spreading perhaps untruths and rumours about a breeder and damaging that breeder's reputation without the breeder knowing or being able to give the other side of the story.

I remember one incident from way back, can't remember now who the breeder (she was a member here) and the buyer was was from another country and continent. The sale went through, horse was exported, payment had been made, etc. etc. The buyer on the other end put a reversal on the payment of the animal. There was nothing wrong with the animal as I recall and the woman who purchased him showed him in her country, won everything.... and the poor seller was out of the price of the horse and no way could she fight it half way around the world and this purchaser basically got a very nice show horse for free!!! That woman's name (the buyer) should be on record somewhere.

 

[Mona]

I remember one incident from way back, can't remember now who the breeder (she was a member here) and the buyer was was from another country and continent. The sale went through, horse was exported, payment had been made, etc. etc. The buyer on the other end put a reversal on the payment of the animal. There was nothing wrong with the animal as I recall and the woman who purchased him showed him in her country, won everything.... and the poor seller was out of the price of the horse and no way could she fight it half way around the world and this purchaser basically got a very nice show horse for free!!! That woman's name (the buyer) should be on record somewhere.

I believe this was Lyn it happened to.

 

[sharpllook]

Can we SAY, TAIL-LIGHT Guarantee!!!

If you are not wanting to put your pocketbook where your "after-the-sale" mouth is .... Whine to the next person that will do something wrong to you!

If I, in good faith, sell something to you and it turns out BAD. If I can fix it, I will.

However, we all know sometimes

--- two nuts dont show up

--- a bite switches

--- a mare aborts

PAY for the GUARANTEE or shut up! Simple.

My horses speak for themselves. They dont lie. If you cant decide on the right horse for you and let your pocketbook decide, you GOT what you PAID for.

 

[Mona]

Can we SAY, TAIL-LIGHT Guarantee!!!

If you are not wanting to put your pocketbook where your "after-the-sale" mouth is .... Whine to the next person that will do something wrong to you!

If I, in good faith, sell something to you and it turns out BAD. If I can fix it, I will.

However, we all know sometimes

--- two nuts dont show up

--- a bite switches

--- a mare aborts

PAY for the GUARANTEE or shut up! Simple.

My horses speak for themselves. They dont lie. If you cant decide on the right horse for you and let your pocketbook decide, you GOT what you PAID for.

Well sorry to say, things that don't work out are not always a matter of "TAIL-LIGHT Guarantee" or "you GOT what you PAID for"! Even when you think you have covered these bases and ask for a written guarantee on these things, those guarantees can sometimes prove to be worth only as much as the paper they are written on!