Chronic founder/laminitis questions

[BiologyBrain]

I've never handled a horse with founder/laminitis problems until now. So I'm doing a lot of reading on the Internet (mostly barefoot trimming, hoof anatomy, and the safer grass page) and through research journals to find out more about managing and preventing recurrences, this may sound like a stupid question, but LB and RM when they are gimping around have that (and of course the weird feet/posture), but none of the other symptoms like a pounding digital pulse or hot feet. Since he's a chronic mostly untreated case, does that change the big symptoms? I mean I may stink at checking digital pulse, but i can surely detect heat in a foot... Right? Is there a time limit to how long the heat & pulse last? Am I just not with them in the right time period to detect the heat& pulse?

Thanks. I'm just trying to figure this all out to help them.

 

[BSharpRanch]

Usually the heat and bounding pulse are during flare-ups when the lamini are inflamed. I like comparrisons... Even though it isn't the same mechanicly it will give you an idea. Have you ever quicked a finger nail? To the point of making it bleed? That finger will become inflamed and swell. You can feel the bounding pulse and your finger tip will become hot. As the injury grows out the inflamation goes away as does the swelling, heat and bounding pulse. As I said, for example only, a quicked fingernail and laminitis are NOT the same.

 

[BiologyBrain]

When he's gimping around without pounding pulse or heat, he's having pain, not from current inflamation, but from the mechanical pain of his white line/lamina being pulled apart by his weight? Which in turn can cause another flare up of laminitis as his immune system responds to the mechanical separation of the white line/lamina, and so on & so forth? Right?

When I nipped his toes, the white line/lamina is still separated from his hoof wall, but no longer under the same mechanical stress it was. Hopefully this can break the pattern of mechanical-caused flare ups. Now to figure out why he keeps having the same trouble.

 

[Norah]

I would suggest a very expierenced farrier and vet to work together on a program for his feet, including x-rays if you can afford it ( I know its expensive) ....then work with the vet on a good feed program for maintance . I believe in the states you have a feed called "remedy" or something like that which is a sugar reducer. Soaking hay, steaming hay, and reducing the fresh grass , will be helpful .... shavings instead of straw bedding will help , as the straw can have unnessessary amounts of sugar. Kathy Wills I believe has a lot to say abut feeding your horse to reduce your chance of founder laminitis .... sorry you are having to deal with this , its not fun

 

[FurstPlaceMiniatures]

I rescued my guy from a similar situation. The only reason he made it was because he was on a mud lot constantly. They hadn't trimmed him for 2 yes, and fed him WAY too much sweet feed. And unlimited hay. He was FAT. His sole was bulbous and his wall had frayed off but continued to grow. He couldn't stand on 3 feet to trim him at first.

I work as a hoof trimmer. I really don't want you to take this the wrong way, but these are not the horses you should.learn to trim on. A pro really is needed. You should work.with the pro and learn how to do it though! Please stop nipping the toes. His heels should be dropped instead if he really is laminitic.

For the time being, keep.them on mid, or a deep bedded stall. Icing could help too

 

[amysue]

I had a Belgian mare with chronic laminitis. An old veterinary manual from 1801 recommended staking a foundered horse in a river or stream to ice the foot constantly. I set up a round pen in the shallow end of the pond and had a truckload of sand dumped in so the mare would not sink, We were able to keep the heat in her feet down by keeping her feet submerged in the cool water. She loved it, as It made her feel better, and she recovered much quicker than when she was stalled. Diet, hoof care and living conditions play a huge role in the development and progression of laminitis, however I believe that some horses are more genetically prone to it than others. have your horse checked for sensitivities to sugars. it may be a metabolic imbalance that is making his body react so poorly and causing him to founder. If his walls are separating and causing pain, you might try fitting him for a pair of suspension boots. They're pricy but offer some relief, or at least they did for my mare.

 

[shorthorsemom]

Dry lot with deep pea gravel can help support the foot and help with white line issues. Folks with horses with chronic laminits need an excellent farrier willing to work hand in hand with them to help keep the feet well balanced and trimmed. Separated white line will eventually cause abscesses and can be very painful. Chronic founder can eventually cause the bone in the hoof to rotate through the bottom of the feet.

I had a horse founder once. My farrier was out every 4 weeks for a year post founder and he wore a muzzle when outside. chuckle... horse wore muzzle.. not farrier...

Laminitis and founder are the pits. I can imagine how frustrated you are and it sounds like you want to help.

When my horses had separated white lines a few years back my farrier gave me a product called founder free to rub on the feet. I also had my farrier out frequently for adjustments. Thats when I put in the pea gravel. The white line separation on my boys were due to poor trims from a previous farrier and it was horrible trying to get things right again. Seemed like we would never get things under control. One farrier trimmed too far trying to adjust the hoof to get rid of the white line and my boys were sore for 3 weeks.

My next farrier is fantastic and he is still my farrier.

He cleaned up the feet and established proper angle. he put a poly material in the white line holes so dirt wouldn't pack in any more and that poly material was as strong as the hooves and grew out with the hooves and once grown out, white lines were tight. Pea gravel took care of the rest. 4-6 inches of it. No thrush, no white line disease for several years now and I keep on top of the trims.

Don't think you can put the poly material in when you are having a laminitic flare up, but I will say that pounding hooves are very painful and the pressure can be deadly.
I never agreed with letting horses stand in mud, to me that just drives the dirt and silt up into the pockets. My vet had me stand the horses in clean ice water in buckets to reduce the flare up pain.

I hate founder, wish you luck and best wishes and hope you get some help for your baby.

 

[shorthorsemom]

ps.. my back yard explanation... during laminitis it is like the outside hoof wall and the inside hoof wall are moving in opposite directions . The rise of the toe and the heading south of the rest of the foot to relieve the pressure will cause the coffin bone to rotate downward toward the bottom of the foot. A little of blood pressure in the foot is very painful. Hoof wall is very hard and no where for pressure to go. Laminitis can be managed.

Also, how old is your mini? Aged minis can get cushings and this can cause laminitis too. Pergolide daily can help cushings horses and there are products like remission and quiessence that can help reduce fat and help prevent laminitis.

I have experience with cushings caused founder and laminitis and know how frustrating it can be to treat.

pss, do you have black walnut trees in pasture? Horses can get bouts of laminitis from black walnut, even standing on the shavings.

 

[BiologyBrain]

The two worst boys also are the youngest in their herd of geldings. They're all less than 10 years old (except the Belgian he was 6 when he was purchased 10 years ago). He was purchased well before the minis & they were all young (>5). That's as specific as I can get.

I don't want to have to trim these guys, but if its the only option for getting them relief, I'll do my best to help them. I'm doing the bet I can for what I've got. Trust me, the last thing I want is to hurt these horses or let them continue to be miserable. So I'm using all my accumulated horse knowledge & websites/articles to help. One example of the information I'm using is from bare-foot-horses .com (follows Pete Ramey), their equine founder page. So while I appreciate that for the best results I should have a vet and trained barefoot trimmer working with the owner/handler to address all the issues, I cannot make that happen here. I have limited control over the management of these horses, but I'm hoping that by showing the value of what I'm telling the owner, he'll take my advice on other aspects as well. Just like correcting the minis problems has to be done in a stepwise fashion, so also does the convincing of the owner to take all the steps. Just to clarify what I did with his feet further - I took as much of the heel as I could & the same with the toe flare - just as pictured in the website I mentioned earlier.

I've not only been studying hoof structure, disease/symptoms, and repair, but also horse management issues, metabolic disorders, etc. I think at least RM is IR or EMS, or some other metabolic problem. LB may have a similar issue, but doesn't present quite as many of the signs.

 

[Marty]

I'm not understanding why you cannot get a professional on this to help you but its very important you review your feeding program and above all, tend to the pain. These horses are hurting and in agony if they are foundered. A horse that "gimps" as you say is lame and pain management is key. Good luck to you.

 

[Tremor]

I'm not understanding why you cannot get a professional on this to help you but its very important you review your feeding program and above all, tend to the pain. These horses are hurting and in agony if they are foundered. A horse that "gimps" as you say is lame and pain management is key. Good luck to you.

She doesn't own them unfortunately. Otherwise, I could suggest quite a few places for her to find farriers (contacting the Kentucky Horseshoeing School and asking for a list of local graduates would be one) and she is of course located in horse country. Kentucky. Can't be that hard to find a farrier. I'm sure you could throw a rock and hit about twenty farriers before it hits the ground.

Alas, she doesn't own them.

 

[shorthorsemom]

So these are not your horses and you are trying to get information to help somebody else?...I see somebody was posting at same time as me and that i was right in assuming you are not the owner. Wanted to post that so u didn't get negative opinion about your limited ability to help. Hands tied is so frustrating. Nice of you to try to do something. Best wishes.

 

[BiologyBrain]

While theoretically I'm in 'horse country' my area in Western KY does run to throwing rocks & hitting good farriers. Especially not ones who would be amiable to treating chronic founder/laminitis in minis. You're right I don't own the horses, but I'm trying to do my best for them. Based on what I've been reading about barefoot trimming, it is not what my of the farriers I've used (at least three from my area) practice or know about. Even my vet (pretty much the only one local that caters to large animals) didn't seem overly concerned with the foot problems we were having with the minis this past winter. Don't get me wrong, she's usually great, but maybe she was having n 'off day' that day. When I asked her about LBs platform elf shoe-like feet, I understood her to say 'some ponies just have feet like that.' I understood her to say that LBs problem was simply deep thrush and RMs problem was that one foot had the wrong angle/trim. She left instructions for the farrier on trimming RM (but I'm not sure they were followed) and medicine for LB's thrush long with the suggestion to clean his feet out more often. I did everything I could to follow her instructions, but at the time I was working full-time and not as available as I am now. So I missed the next farrier visit, but did eliminate LBs thrush (until it came back -- probably partially due to contracted heels as a result of his bad feet).

I really appreciate the help you've given me. I'm trying and don't want to sound like I dismiss anyone's advice on here, but I'm only capable of doing as the owner agrees. He's agreed to let me use photos of them on here and is allowing me to do simple things to hopefully alleviate their pain. I give him the same advice you give me, but I can't make him follow it. He doesn't willingly want to hurt his horses, but he's in his 70s and had biggies all his life. Just the other day (on a different mini problem we have) he said in the old days they'd just throw kerosene on a horse with itchy skin and it would 'take care of it'.