clicker training, treats, and biting

[Rockysticksfeatherfarm]

I was reading a few past posts on here about clicker training. I have recently downloaded Peggy Hogans first video on clicker training. I didn't clicker train my dog but I did use treats. Does clicker training work well for doing shows (for those that use it)? Our mini is kind of mouthy already, so far he hasn't got away with full out biting anyone....everyone seems to have an opinion about mini's most recently another horse owners response was "watch those mini's they tend to bite". So now I think I am a little paranoid in combination with that he has attempted....he hasn't yet out of any kind of aggression, so it's hard to tell when he is going to do it, I don't want to over react and make him head shy. I want to be comfortable with him sniffing and nosing around.

My fear would be that his nipping would get worse....He is my daughters horse and want him to be very good around children. In the first video she demonstrates the proper way to give a treat and not get "mugged". Ironically, until tonight, he wouldn't take a treat from our hand...I assumed he didn't like them. He will take hay and oats but not treats....until tonight he took one from my hand. I made my daughter stop feeding him oats from her hand, I was thinking that might be why he was starting to nip? She really does enjoy him eating from her hand though, I guess it's one of those things kids really seem to enjoy. In the video she hold the treat in the palm of her hand with the back of her hand to the horses mouth then gives the treat, this is exactly how I trained my dog to take a treat so she doesn't bite. BUT if my dog would go for the treat in an aggressive manor I would bump her nose with my hand and make her wait. The video is good and it's obvious she knows what she is doing but it's always hard to see how it really works with an untrained horse (or dog) the horse she used already knew what to do and never even looked like he might bite. I just don't want my daughter to get bit while trying this kind of training because she has a small hand and if he goes to bite he could get the whole thing before it's to late. I would love to see some suggestions from those who use clicker training : )

 

[AnnaC]

I dont know much about clicker training, but I would never offer treats to a young horse from my hand. Youngsters do nibble at things (often things they shouldn't be eating!) and just the searching for the expected treat can cause a nip here and there, which can then esculate into a bite. We dont even treat any of our minis - especially never the colts/stallions - everyone is quite happy getting vocal praise or gentle scratches as a reward for good behaviour.

 

[Rhondaalaska]

Let her give treats from a special bucket or dish that she gets to hold for her little horse.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

OK, radical thought but, basically , why give treats at all? I have never used them except under specialist, controlled, circumstances, with a definite goal in mind and then, once that goal is achieved, they are phased out. My horses are fed- they are left alone to eat in peace. Think about how your daughter would feel if you sat beside her and hand fed her her meals..... I can see that working!!

So, the same applies to our animals, they have a right to some privacy and respect, and you are getting "in his face" for no apparent good reason other than you want to, you want to be near him, you want to interact with him. It is totally understandable but stand back and look, for a moment, at what he might want, and what he needs (not, you will know as a mother, the same things at all!) He needs discipline, but it seems to me that, at the moment, you are actually causing the situations that then require training and discipline. Get him gelded, that is the very first step, then he can start learning to be a nice animal for a young child, which a mouthy coming yearling colt is never going to be. I am not suggesting you should not correct spontaneously occurring bad behaviour, but, honestly, at the moment you are making a rod for your own back.

 

[MountainWoman]

I clicker train, have done it for years and yes, it works. You have to start from square one with horses and teach them not to nip or bite. If you are working with a very young horse or a highly excitable one, you can use other things for rewards besides food. I have had horses start out grabbing too quickly but was able to phase it out as soon as they understood they wouldn't get rewarded if they grabbed or bit.

There's so much about clicker training to learn and one of the best places to start is with Alexandra Kurland's books and I also recommend you join the Yahoo mailing group Click-L. Lots of great people on the list who will go into depth about clicker training questions. I hope you join us and you'll get advice from experts.

I personally wouldn't let your daughter treat your horse from her hand until your horse understood biting and grabbing is not allowed.

Just want to say to those who disagree with the concept that clicker training might not be for everyone. You can just go out there with a clicker and a bag of treats. You have to have a training plan, know what you want to accomplish and be able to break it down into small steps. You also have to have good timing so you don't accidentally reward the wrong behavior and you have to have patience. But for me, clicker training has been an incredible way to build relationships with horses and take those relationships to a whole new level. It's been an amazing journey.

 

[Minimor]

I cannot help with clicker training, but want to say that i have always hand fed treats to our horses, big and small, and have never had problems with them biting or nipping because of it. i give treats by hand and I feed a handful of oats here and there.

I have had a horse here and there than had a phase of liking to nip but those were not treat related--one Norgan colt liked to sneak up behind me, give me a punch, and then dart away--it was just young horse playfulness when he was by himself and had no playmate--whether or not he was hand fed treats had nothing to do with it--once he was gelded the behavior stopped. My stallions are and always have been hand fed and would not think of biting.

I do think it's a bad idea for a child to hand feed without supervision, because some horses will take advantage and get too pushy and even start grabbing at fingers or arms if the person isn't aware and capable of dealing with any such attempt. Some people don't have their horses' respect and then yes, their hand fed horse may get pushy.

 

[sparklingjewelacres]

The clicker training will not be my cup of tea to use for our situation. I never needed to use it on our dog. She does all sorts of things by just our verbal commands, or reading our expressions and a strong desire to please us. We brought home the leader of the pack so this was the hardest puppy we have ever had in our lives to train. We went through some tough months and then ... she finally broke and desired to please us and let us be in charge. Yes.. we give treats for a reward and I have them in my pocket often for our dog but I sure do make her earn them. I can train this dog to do just about anything now and she does do amazing things. We have never trained a horse but I am not going to do it with a treat clicker system. When we bring the mares up to the shed at night from the field.. they know that if they come when we call them now that they will get a treat(only had them 4 months) They also know that I will not tolerate any nibbling or nipping and that rule got established right off as one of them wasnt sure she liked us or her new home when she came here but she is so bonded to us now. Training a dog is way different than a horse and we have so much to learn but after watching so many videos on horse training.. I have observed that the ones that didnt offer treats were more successful than the others but perhaps that isnt including show horses. I also love this movie(documentary) "Wild Horse, Wild Ride." We have a lot to learn about horses but I am reluctant to be dipping into a treat bag too often in order to train them and for now I use them very sparingly.

 

[sparklingjewelacres]

I also work at having a connection with an animal and get them used to reading my expressions. I expect that horses are not much different in dogs in being in tune to what their masters are really desiring out of them (That is.. if we as the masters can get these animals to the place where they desire to please us) I don't know how successful we will be at training a young horse or even these older ones to do what we want, but I expect that we will get best results by just simply letting the animal know exactly what it is that we expect them to do and then with gentle authority and patience.. keep at it until they even yield the slightest .. followed by a bunch of praise. I'll try the mental connection first before the clicker.. but those who like clicker training - really really love it and like what they have accomplished. Everyone has to work with what is best but a lot can get accomplished by just developing a bond with an animal and learning how to communicate well with them. I also trained a new young parakeet to say about 10 different phrases and a bunch of other random words in a short time of only a few months simply by setting it by my chair and talking in a personal fun way. That little bird amazed me and knew when I was asking a question. The communication connection has to be made clear from us humans to animals to all these animals that desire to please us.

 

[MountainWoman]

The aim of clicker training is to phase out treats. A good clicker trainer shouldn't be using treats with the same horse forever. Everyone has their own way of training. Everyone has their own methods. And most importantly, everyone has their own training goals. I use the clicker for trick training. I have totally phased out the clicker for basic behaviors now. Don't need it any longer. I don't have my pockets stuffed with treats.

There is certainly more than one way of bonding/training with a horse or a dog and one method doesn't create a stronger bond than another. Find what works for you by researching lots of trainers you admire and then incorporate elements of each that work. Your training tool box shouldn't be limited to one method and blind to all others because the mark of a great trainer is to be flexible and understand the needs of the animal they are working with.

In my experience, I've found that the horses who become clicker "stars" are usually labeled as trouble makers elsewhere - meaning they are very active, always into things and basically making a pest of themselves to the average owner. I've found with the clicker, you can harness that energy into positive ways and the sky is the limit as far as training.

I think it's fun to hear about the training methods others are using and their successes and struggles (I've had my share of struggles) and I'm definitely not "clicker blind."

And SparklingJewelAcres, your parakeet sounds amazing!!!