Coat Color VS. Quality

[Minimor]

Thank you Sue--that's exactly right, many Morgans were registered with the wrong color, just like Minis are today. Riverdance said it herself--it wasn't until the early 1950's that the dilute Morgans got noticed. Just because no one paid any attention to them prior to that doesn't mean they didn't exist. Chingadero, a double dilute born in 1953, made people sit up & take notice. But, his dam Haager was registered as dun; in actual fact she was a buckskin. His sire was registered as chestnut, but was actually smokey black....just as there were other smokey blacks that never got recognized as such. Wherever the dilute gene came from originally, it was "legal"--that was well back in the day when the registry was still open, so the dilute Morgans were every bit as Morgan as any of the other Morgans of that era.

Here is a quote from a page on Chingadero--this was written by Laura Behning: It was feared by some that these colorfuls were the result of accidental non-Morgan breeding. Today, with improved knowledge of color genetics, we know better. Folks who knew Ab Cross also emphasized how very careful he was in recording and identifying his horses. All were double branded and Ab kept meticulous notes including markings and color, which mares were bred to which stallion, and he never covered a mare with more than one stallion during a breeding season. Still, owners of Chingadero get often reported being snubbed or looked down upon by their fellow Morgan owners for having "that horse" on their Morgan's papers.

By the registered-as-chestnut Ketchum (Joe Lewis X Du Noir Strip), Chingadero was out of the registered-as-dun Haager (Warhawk X Yellow Girl). Ketchum has been described by eyewitnesses as black (a smoky black, carrying the crème dilution gene; smokies are often mistaken for chestnut or brown), but others theorize he was palomino. Mr. Cross himself refers to Ketchum as "Black Jack Ketchum" in the September 1954 issue of The Morgan Horse where he reports of Ketchum's death. At any rate, he could not have been chestnut to have carried the dilution gene.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

I've met some of those breeders - color is everything with conformation an afterthought. They are in every breed of equine and in other species too. Its unfortunate as it shouldn't be an either/or.

Personally - conformation, intelligence, movement, sound mind are rated way above color.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Color sales because there are people out there that can't look past the color. I don't look for color, I look for the quality of the horse.

Those people that you talked to if they are in the business they won't be doing a very good job.

 

[Bunnylady]

I have a rabbit-raising friend that used to breed Paint horses, who can't seem to "get" conformation. She told me, "I know a good horse when I see one, I just can't tell you why it's good. That's why I breed Harlequins (a rabbit breed whose markings account for the majority of points). When it's there in black and white, that I can see." I suspect a lot of people may be in the same boat. Certainly, the person who is buying a mini as a pet is likely to get caught by the eye candy of flashy markings, rather than look for the more subtle details of proportions and angles. Out in the pasture, the pintos and appies grab the eye, and the darker colors almost disappear. If these breeders are mainly selling to pet buyers, I'll bet that anything with color, regardless of conformation, sells faster than their solid-colored counterparts. To the uneducated eye, flashy = pretty, unfortunately, few learn to look further than that. I would like to believe that we are all among that few!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I am a lot "harder" on my Appy colt, when I look at him, than I am on my solid Silver Bay colt, as I would never wish it to be said that I only use him because he is so loudly marked, a colt/stallion can do a lot more "harm" fault wise than a mare can ever do, as a stallion can breed up to fifty mares in a season, but a mare can only have one foal a year.

So my entires have to be as near to perfect as possible, by my reckoning, and a patterned one has to be even better than that!!

I told DC only this afternoon that there is one quick answer to all his shenanigans with an in season mare over the fence, and he will make a very nice driving horse!

(Well, he shall make that anyway, but it is a lot easier to talk sense to a two year old gelding than it is a two year old colt.)

 

[Leeana]

I must have good conformation, attitude, movement, elegance and an alert personality.

Dress it up in bay and chrome - that is just the cherry on top. But we don't buy a sunday just for the cherry ontop..

Call me borning, I like solids.....

 

[ruffian]

"Well, long story short I was talking to several breeders and it seems to them that if the horse does not have any sort of pinto heritage or pinto markings, it's not worth any more than $400 period. No matter what gender, age, height, bloodlines, what conformation quality, etc. and to me this is very disturbing! I understand people have breeding programs but to put down a solid colored horse just because it is solid colored and say it is worthless? Not right in my eyes! I have always been raised to believe that a good horse is a good horse no matter the color, and this fact stands true to my belief. I even have a pinto breeding program but I also have two nice solid colored horses in there as well simply because they have the conformation and bloodlines that I would like to add to my program, so color is not always what it's cracked up to be!"

There are a lot of people out there that are breeding for a quick sale. Mostly selling to new people who don't have a clue what conformation means, just that the pony with the bright spots is cute!! Same thing with puppy mills. They breed the current fad - anything with a poodle! - to make a quick buck. They run them through cheap auctions and a little black colt won't bring as much as a loudly colored one. Even if the black has better conformation.

 

[Mominis]

I like solids better than horses of color. I guess it's just my opinion. I bought Shake despite the fact that he is a pinto, not because of the fact the is a pinto.

 

[loveminis]

I look for conformation, temperment, health, are all first on my list - then I go look for that - with color.

 

[HGFarm]

Oh boy.........

I breed for (hopefully) Appaloosa coloring, but will NEVER compromise that for conformation. The first filly of my own breeding that I kept was born solid colored and didnt have a white hair on her. I didnt care- she was just beautiful and her movement STILL gives me goosebumps! And I didnt care if she never colored out.

I would not buy from someone who just breeds for color, as many other things seem to get compromised. It is too bad that these folks put such a low opinion on their own horses that they think unless it's for the color, their own horses are not worth anything. I think I would be revamping my program then, or stop breeding if that is the case, but some cant seem to see through the color to see the HORSE itself. The horses need to be the best you can breed, and regardless of color, should be valued for who and what they are.

Color is nice, but truly is one of the last things in my book- as I want to breed a good horse FIRST.

 

[Sue_C.]

it is a lot easier to talk sense to a two year old gelding than it is a two year old colt.)

Amazing isn't it, how those testicles seem to act as "earplugs" sometimes? :arg!

ON the serious side, I am getting so tired of people who know nothing about horses, let alone conformation...driving in my yard wanting "as tiny and colourful a mare as we can find", to breed (of COURSE) to their crooked-legged half-crippled, dwarfy black and white pinto stallions.

I am sorry, not knocking all of us who love colour and strive to breed for it as well as "perfect" conformation...but the low-grade breeders out there are taking such advantage of the ignorant, and filling their barns with colourful "trash" while laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[Little Wolf Ranch]

I'm not going to release the farm names or names of the owners but I will post what one breeder emailed me in reply to my request in looking at trading a mare of mine for one of her open mares. Just background info on her, she is 12y/o solid palomino A/R registered and 33.5" and was "open" but is now out with my stallion for a 2011 foal (NOT ADVERTISING HER - I have since decided to retain her for my own purposes. . .just got a harness & I think I would love to have her trained to cart).

"I am sure to you your horse is worth $X to you and if you take the time to advertise you may get that but to me, a solid colored mare that is open and that old is barely worth $400...I dont take trades unless its an overo and a young one at that and smaller than 33.5 so we cant trade. My mares and stallions all have champ "noteable" bloodlines too but that doesnt mean much these days to people unless the actual horse or horses parent is an actual champion and a modern one. No offence but even at Mount airy, an aged open palomino mare would bring maybe $400 these days. I just dont think your mare for one of mine would be an even trade."

Personally, when I read this email I could have hurt somebody. I didn't send any pictures of her so they couldn't have even possibly been thinking of conformation. It's not that she turned me down (which I never plan on anything going through, honestly) but what got to me was the fact of that she was putting down ALL mares who are "aged" (in her opinion), solid and not bred!

I actually used to look up to this breeder but now, they have lost a customer for life. I still like their horses but I do not plan on buying from them. I am just highly disappointed in what I found out about this breeder. Very very disappointed!

 

[Riverdance]

It's not that she turned me down (which I never plan on anything going through, honestly) but what got to me was the fact of that she was putting down ALL mares who are "aged" (in her opinion), solid and not bred!

I always tell people that when one is starting out and they do not have much money, that aged mares are the way to go. They can be great, proven, quality producers and less money to start out. For some reason, people think that mares that are 12 years and older are aged mares. I bought a mare at the age of 18. So far she has had two foals for me and I am hoping for one more.

This mare has produced two AMHA Grand Champions that sold for $20,000 each.

I also have some really great mares that have produced really well for me. They are over 12 years and I have no plans on selling them.

So by all means, look at those aged mares. If you only get a couple of foals from them, you are still ahead of the game. Most likely you will get several foals from them.

 

[PromiseAcres]

Personally, when I read this email I could have hurt somebody. I didn't send any pictures of her so they couldn't have even possibly been thinking of conformation. It's not that she turned me down (which I never plan on anything going through, honestly) but what got to me was the fact of that she was putting down ALL mares who are "aged" (in her opinion), solid and not bred!

I think I'd feel the same way. I've had horse/trailers listed as negotiable and then they want me to negotiate the price down to them... I'll admit I don't deal well with them. I list a price and then you make the offer, it's then up to me to accept or not. Not you tell me why you ASSUME my horse/item is overpriced and how you could get a much better deal else where. I told one gal well "good luck with your new trailer", after she wrongly assumed she'd have to put in a new floor, yet she'd never asked once about the floor. She told me she'd have to put $1000 in my trailer but never asked about the floor, ect. Wanted me to take 1/2 the price for my trailer b/c she found another one in "perfect" condtion. Oh well

In any case most my mares are "aged" can't say they're w/o issues but I love em and think it's the place to start. I've seen foals from all but one who came from an auction. Oh and I've been told that roans and greys don't sell well.... I have a blue roan stallion and a grey one.... Again I love 'em and I didn't get into them b/c I want to make $. It does get hard to not to let "stupid" people get to you. Guess we just shouldn't take their opinions seriously.

 

[Little Hooves]

Conformation should always come first. A nice horse will typically demand a higher price than a horse with faults and, well, a very nice pinto or ap will demand a high price too.

I think it should go without saying, regardless of a pattern preference, I believe in the concept "save and buy one very nice animal rather than 10 pet quality ones".

I think it is untrue/unfair to say a solid horse holds no value as much as it is untrue/unfair to say every pinto/ap must be lacking in some way because a owner sacrificed in other areas to achieve that goal.

One can have their cake and eat it too, regardless of preference, if they are willing to be patient, be discriminating,and above all else, save their pennies.

This is not meant to be directed at anyones responses, just my own logic on the matter.

I agree very much with this - because it's a little obvious I'm one of those color breeders out there - ah, the buckskin pinto. So I meticulously scoured year after year, with a husband at my side to keep me straight. We only want quality horses, and sure, not every horse is perfect. But I'm not out there buying any buckskin pinto I see. The breeding really helps and I think I lucked out so far. BUT IT WASN'T ANYTHING CLOSE TO CHEAP!!! Not only did I invest a lot of money, but also a lot of time, scouring the web for the next one and trying to be as discriminating as possible - and getting second opinions when I am "color blind," which helps most of all.

And then there is not just color... a lot of people breed for height, too. It's how the dwarf gene became so prevalent in minis today. You just have to be very discriminating, and that's that. And feel free to buy what you like. If by chance what you like is not a popular color, you score! Because the demand is lower on that horse and you get it for a lower price. I'm not so fortunate - a lot of people love dilute pintos and a lot of people choose to keep them when they are born

When I first started looking, countless times I'd read "sorry, she's a keeper!"

OK, I'm done here LOL.

 

[Dontworrybeappy]

I must have good conformation, attitude, movement, elegance and an alert personality.

Dress it up in bay and chrome - that is just the cherry on top. But we don't buy a sunday just for the cherry ontop..

Call me borning, I like solids.....

I would never call you "borning"!

Me too - and I want my specific color on top of it all. If I want the cherry on top, I buy a jar of maraschinos!

A