color info please

[fancyappy]

Hi . I am curious about the color of our filly.What are your thoughts ? Also I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on how she got her color. The threads here on color really fascinate me but I must admit I do not understand everything I am reading. You folks are so informed. You amaze me. So if you can give me some info on our girl I would find it very interesting. Thanks so much!

Her dam is a buckskin paint with only a splash of white on her belly, her sire is black.

Does her color come from a gene in the dam or sire?

Here she is from newborn to current. She is now 4 months old.There is no dark coloring on her legs, mame or tail. her mane and tail are white . her nose appears darker but she is much lighter in color now than when she was born.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3070/296847...573593bb6_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3125/280643...5b45902d7_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3397/317745...569a14d65_o.jpg

 

[Songcatcher]

She appears to be a Palomino. Both parents are Black based, but are apparently heterozygous Red/Black, allowing the foal to inherit the Red from both sides and the Cream gene from the Buckskin dam, creating a Palomino.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Songcatcher has pretty much said it all(but I guess I'm going to say it all again lol). She is clearly homozygous for red (sorrel, chestnut) since if she carried a black gene it would be expressed(she'd be buckskin or smoky black rather than palomino) meaning both of her parents are heterozygous for black. The cream gene apparently comes from the dam (buckskin is a cream gene on bay) but it is also possible that the sire carries a cream gene since smoky black is not always visually very different than black. I'm not very confident on the pinto patterns yet but I'd guess your girl has splash or frame as well. If you plan to breed her someday it might be worth having her tested (or her dam) for LWO.

 

[fancyappy]

Thank you both for your reply and the advice on LWO.

Could she produce another palomino with a different stud or is it the unique gene combo with this particular stallion that produced this color.?Would she produce a light color foal regardless of the studs color?

We are not planning on breeding her but the stallion in question is being offered to us and although we would geld him, we are toying with the idea of rebreeding this mare if we could get another light color foal.

Right now we are in the collecting info stage and are mildly considering acquiring the stallion.

But how she got the color from a black sire is very interesting to me.

Thank you so much for helping me understand "color".

 

[Bunnylady]

She sure looks palomino. So, I think, did this girl:

filly in ad

 

[fancyappy]

She sure looks palomino. So, I think, did this girl:
filly in ad

Wow that is amazing! That sure does look like our girl doesn't it?

So far I see no black except her nose is rather grayish..not pink. Her hooves are light color but I do not know if that means anything. Thanks for the link. That was interesting to see.

 

[fancyappy]

Songcatcher has pretty much said it all(but I guess I'm going to say it all again lol). She is clearly homozygous for red (sorrel, chestnut) since if she carried a black gene it would be expressed(she'd be buckskin or smoky black rather than palomino) meaning both of her parents are heterozygous for black. The cream gene apparently comes from the dam (buckskin is a cream gene on bay) but it is also possible that the sire carries a cream gene since smoky black is not always visually very different than black. I'm not very confident on the pinto patterns yet but I'd guess your girl has splash or frame as well. If you plan to breed her someday it might be worth having her tested (or her dam) for LWO.

Here is a pic of the sire. Is this Smoky black rather than black in your opinion? Thanks!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3497/317768...aa28b8690_o.jpg

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Well usually if you can see the cream gene affecting black at all it seems to cause a reddish tint. I can't tell from the picture if the stallion is recently clipped (causing the bluey/grey tinge) or if he has white hair blending into his black which would indicate a sabino gene (another of the pinto genes) I would sure suspect him of carrying LWO tho so best to test one of them to avoid the heartbreak of LWO+ to LWO+. As for whether she could produce another dilute foal (palimino or buckskin) the answer is absolutely. Is it a for sure thing? No. Unless you breed her to a stallion with 2 cream genes (perlino or creamello) there is only a 50/50 chance she will pass her cream gene along (of course she could have all dilute foals depending on the roll of the dice) since she only has one cream gene. She will contribute one gene and the sire one gene (its a bit more complex but I'm trying to keep from getting confusing...which probably means I am getting MORE confusing

) her foals will have from her 1 chance in 2 of receiving that gene. Hope that made sense. Its a bit of a crap shoot breeding for colour. You may get all the foals dilute or none of them or any thing in between unless one parent is homozygous for cream. If this stallion is in fact smoky black (I have no real idea if he is or not altho my guess is no) the odds do increase slightly that the foal will be a pali or buckskin (or smoky black). I hope that made some sense and I haven't confused you completely now

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Clipped pictures are useless to tell colour, sorry!!

I am suspect of this one, I am not at all sure it is Palomino, do you have a couple of good pictures of the dam???

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Really Rabbitfizz? Do you think then that she is actually just a very light sorrel? I'm sure you have more experience with the colour of mini foals than I do. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts (altho its not my thread, nor my horse )

 

[Songcatcher]

Clipped pictures are useless to tell colour, sorry!!I am suspect of this one, I am not at all sure it is Palomino, do you have a couple of good pictures of the dam???

Really Rabbitfizz? Do you think then that she is actually just a very light sorrel? I'm sure you have more experience with the colour of mini foals than I do. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts (altho its not my thread, nor my horse )

No way is this foal Sorrel unless it has extremely heavy Sabino roaning. I did first consider the possibility of a Smokey Cream (two Cream genes on Black0 or Perlino (two Cream genes on Bay) but could not see the blue eyes or pink skin of a double dilute.

From the buckskin mare, you have a 50% chance of producing a single dilute foal (Buckskin, Palomino, or Smokey Black). Your chances for Palomino would be better from a Sorrel stallion and chances for a Buckskin better from a Bay stallion.

As mentioned, Smokey Black may or may not look different from a regular Black. Both of the horses pictured below are lab tested and proven by breeding to be Smokey Blacks.

 

[fancyappy]

Clipped pictures are useless to tell colour, sorry!!I am suspect of this one, I am not at all sure it is Palomino, do you have a couple of good pictures of the dam???

Here you go..a couple pics of the mare.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3259/317754...129592160_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3324/317754...480579a46_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3382/317754...032dc8285_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3454/317754...c01d5002b_o.jpg

 

[fancyappy]

Thanks everyone!

I really am learning alot from your comments.

I am concerned about the LWO gene. Do these two horses [mare and stud}stand a higher chance of producing this type of foal?

Sorry I only have a couple pics of the stallion and they are both showing him clipped.Sorry bout that.

He has another son out of a white mare . He is chocolate with a flaxen mane and tail.

Here is a poor pic of him.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3102/317757...455d742ba_o.jpg

 

[Songcatcher]

The mare is a Silver Buckskin. The foal could easily carry Silver, but it would have no effect on a Red base. The foal appears to have dark eyes and dark skin. If I am correct in that, double Cream dilute is out of the question and the only possibility would be Palomino or VERY light Silver Buckskin.

 

[fancyappy]

The mare is a Silver Buckskin. The foal could easily carry Silver, but it would have no effect on a Red base. The foal appears to have dark eyes and dark skin. If I am correct in that, double Cream dilute is out of the question and the only possibility would be Palomino or VERY light Silver Buckskin.

Thank you so much for the info. The foal does have dark eyes and her muzzle is grayish looking. Other wise she appears almost white under her ivory foal fuzz.Does silver buckskin mean there is a gray gene involved?

I really appreciate the info. Anything else you would like to share about color genetics, I am all ears.Thanks again

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Silver and grey are 2 distinct genes and act in completely different ways. The grey gene does not usually show at birth but they begin to 'grey out', that is grow in grey as they shed the foal coat. Every year will see changes on a grey and most will eventually turn white. Grey is grey regardless of the base colour. Silver on the other hand modifies the colour the horse is born and altho they may get lighter or darker at different times of the year the colour will remain more or less constant. As songatcher said, silver is not expressed on a red horse but can hide there and be passed on to that horses offspring. Silver shows on black based horses only, black, bay and buckskin. Some horses show it more than others. I do agree with songcatcher still that your foal is a pali but colour on foals can be tricky and they will sometimes change more than once before they are a year old, so I could be wrong. She is very similar to her dam and so could well be a (silver) buckskin as well.

 

[mmmorgans]

Your filly looks palomino to me. I had a black Morgan mare that I bred to a buckskin stallion - and I was expecting a chance of a buckskin foal. But she foaled a beautiful palomino colt - that was really red at birth - but you can see he is a golden palomino as an adult.

 

[fancyappy]

Your filly looks palomino to me. I had a black Morgan mare that I bred to a buckskin stallion - and I was expecting a chance of a buckskin foal. But she foaled a beautiful palomino colt - that was really red at birth - but you can see he is a golden palomino as an adult.

Oh he is stunning!!

If my girl turned out that color I would be thrilled.

 

[Bunnylady]

That Morgan is one gorgeous hunk of horse, quite apart from his color!

As others have said, the silver gene only affects the black pigment on a horse. One that shows no black pigment (a chestnut, for example) could carry the silver gene, but not show it. Often, the most obvious sign of the silver gene being present is lightening of the mane and/or tail on an animal that would otherwise be very dark there. Some silver bays get mistaken for chestnuts, because the silver gene turns their manes and tails almost flaxen, instead of black. The thing that gives it away, is the dark color on the legs is only minimally affected, so a silver bay will still have black, or nearly black, legs, whatever color the mane/tail may be. I know of a horse that the owner calls a palomino pinto, because his body is mainly gold and his mane/tail cream-colored, but his dark brown legs make me think, he's a silver buckskin! Others may correct me on this (I'm still getting the hang of horse colors too!) but the chocolate colored colt you mentioned is probably a silver black, genotypically speaking. (The silver gene may have come from his white dam, so this doesn't mean the sire carries silver.)

There are several different genes that can put white on a horse. The problem is, some of them can be hard to tell apart, especially when they are only minimally expressed. Sabino, Splash, Frame (LWO) all can put white on the face and legs of a horse, and if all you have are little white socks and a blaze to go by, it can be really hard to be sure which one(s) you are seeing. The only one that is a problem is LWO, if both parents carry the gene (LWO+,) you have a 25% chance of getting a lethal white foal. If only for peace of mind, any horse being used for breeding (especially those with any white on the face and/or legs) should be tested for LWO, unless they are always bred to a horse known to be LWO-.