colour experts

[Windhaven]

Well I have a questions.

Have a filly here the looks like a smokey cream pinto with blue eyes.

A smokey cream is double delute with the agouti gene right? Which would mean both parents would have to carry the cream gene?

Can a bay care the cream gene hidden? Always wondering about this one.

The filly's sire is registered as a bay pinto but has a lot of buckskin and palomino breeding in him.

Also have a mare here that is registered brown (dam of filly above) but I think is a smutty buckskin.

Her sire is a appy sorrel but I am guessing he probably is actually a silver bay.

Dam is registered as a black but I am guessing she is a smokey black. (she has had a cream, dam of filly above which I think is buckskin but registered brown, and palomino foals).

Any help on colour would be great.

Will try to get pictures soon.

(EditedWell I have pictures now. I just hope I can get them to work here.

Okay here are pictures of the filly. What colour do you think she is. Sire is listed as a bay pinto and dam is listed as a brown.

She looks like a double dilute to me.

What would you test her for?

Here is a picture of her dam. Her sire is listed as a sorrel appy (which I think must be a silver bay appy) and her dam is listed as black. Her dam is actually a smokey black because she has only had cremello, palomino and brown (which is this mare and I think she is a smutty buckskin).

I do not have a picture of her sire. His name is Mccs Randall. If anyone has a picture of him, I would love to see it.

What base colour is brown?

Can a brown carry the cream gene hidden?

A black can not carry the agouti gene hidden can they?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

A smoky cream is a black with 2 cream genes, no agouti. If there was also agouti the horse would be a perlino. You can have one of 3 double dilutes, a creamello (2 cream on red) a perlino(2 cream on black with agouti) or smoky cream (2 cream on black) For a foal to be a double dilute they must have cream from both parents and a bay can not hide a cream gene, it would be a buckskin. I have however seen some buckskins who look bay.

Not sure what to tell you about the second scenario, don't quite understand what you are describing. Hope that helps.

 

[supaspot]

black can hidecream and I have seen some very dark buckskins that youd never guess carried cream , so it is possible , do you have any picsof sire and dam ? and foalie just so I can drool !

 

[Windhaven]

Added pictures above and more questions. Any colour help would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Ashley]

Do you have a pic of the sire? The dam is for sure a buckskin, and the filly does look to be a double dose cream. I would guess sire is buckskin pinto.

 

[ohmt]

She does look double dilute. The dam looks smutty buckskin (her sire could be sorrel appy and not silver bay unless you've seen pictures or in person and think otherwise) and the sire could maybe be smutty buckskin too or maybe there is another stallion responsible for your pretty little filly.

 

[Jill]

Looks double dilute to me, too, and the dam looks smutty buckskin

The sire of a couple of my double dilutes LOOKS bay pinto, but he has sired many double dilutes and is actually buckskin pinto

Sounds like a similiar situation is going on with your filly's background

 

[Windhaven]

The dam's sire must be a silver bay not sorrel because if the dam's dam is a smokey black then to get a buckskin you need the agouti gene and the sire is the only one who can carry it. The smoky black dam can not carry the agouti gene right? Or can she?

Colours can sure get you thinking.

Thanks for the help.

 

[ohmt]

Chestnuts/sorrels can carry agouti so the sire could be red and pass on the agouti to give you buckskin. Yes, colors are fun!

 

[Windhaven]

That is interesting. Learn something new every day.

Sorrels can carry the agouti.

So does this mean blacks can also carry the agouti gene?

Okay now for my other colour questions.

What base colour is brown?

Can brown hide the cream gene?

Some day I will get this stuff.

 

[rubyviewminis]

If a black carries agouti, it shows since it acts only on black. It doesn't matter if they are heterozygous or homozygous for it, it shows on black since it restricts it to the points. And sorrel/chestnuts can carry it but not show it because it only acts on black.

I may be wrong on this but I think brown/seal brown is bay with the seal brown gene which is another agouti gene. I'm confused

I am waiting on my own filly, she is genetically buckskin but looks to carry her sire's dun gene as well and she was very dark. Now at almost 1 year I clipped her head again and her summer coat and skin is very light with the tan coming in. I need to ask a color question too.

 

[Joanne]

This is our homozygous for black and homozygous for cream 2010 colt for comparison.

He is a splashed white overo pinto and you can see the white pinto pattern against the smoky cream in these photos.

 

[Songcatcher]

So does this mean blacks can also carry the agouti gene? No, Agouti would turn a Black to Bay.

Okay now for my other colour questions.

What base colour is brown? Black,which also carries a different form of Agouti.

Can brown hide the cream gene? Not really. However, what is sometimes called Brown may actually be Smokey Black (Black with Cream). Cream can hide without showing in Black, but sometimes turns the coat a brownish.

Some day I will get this stuff.

I wrote this article some years ago to try to simplify some of the color genetics basics. You may find it helpful. http://www.songcatcherminiaturehorseranch.com/songcatcher_008.htm

Extremely brief version, Black can carry but not show a single dose of Cream, but cannot carry Agouti, Silver, or Dun without showing it. Red (Sorrel) can carry Silver and Agouti without showing it, but can not carry Cream or Dun without them showing.

 

[Jill]

That is interesting. Learn something new every day.

Sorrels can carry the agouti.

So does this mean blacks can also carry the agouti gene?

Okay now for my other colour questions.

What base colour is brown?

Can brown hide the cream gene?

Some day I will get this stuff.

I don't think it's "brown" hiding cream... I think it's just some shades of true buckskin look brown (bay)

Bay cannot hide cream, but true genetic buckskin horses can look more like a shade of bay to the eye

 

[targetsmom]

Back to the question of what to test the filly for: I think you would want to test her for black/red, agouti and cream. That will tell you for sure if she is double dilute, and what exact color. Maybe you can guess, but I don't see how, except to assume she is double dilute. I think the dam is really a buckskin, as others stated, so would have black, cream and agouti genes to contribute.

 

[Windhaven]

Thank you everyone for your expertise.

I have one more question.

The mare also has rust coloured eyes. Not the typical brown eyes. I always thought this was eye colour of champagnes.

So question is what makes rust coloured eyes?

 

[bluerogue]

I have a smokey grulla who has hazel colored eyes. Really quite stunning, and she's a beautiful, friendly mare. I've been told she is champagne, but I believe it is not possible with her bloodlines (and she doesn't show all the characteristics, anyway). I have seen both her sire and dam in person, and have a half sister. While her dam is an odd shade of buckskin/brown, I am positive Holly and her dam are not champagne (dam is appy, but her color just isn't right for champagne). I have not color tested Holly yet, but she is most definitely a grulla, and color experts have told me she is most likely a smokey grulla, given her shade and variability in her coloring.

Anyway, my point is that cream colored horses can have lighter colored eyes. People have told me Holly's eyes are spooky looking, and they are definitely very different. I love her eye color, and it is certainly unique in my herd.

Hopefully the picture attaches correctly. It is Holly, the day I brought her home, two years ago (I think it was 2 years ago).

Editted to hopefully attach the photo this time!