colour/genetic experts

[anoki]

I need help with the colour of this filly. In the pictures she is under 24 hours old.

Mom is a SILVER CHESTNUT-her sire is a silver dapple whose sire was black and dam was a silver dapple; her dam is a silver dapple and I have no background on her.

Dad is a bay, whose parents were both bay.

What colour is she, or could she be??

I have had 5 other foals from this cross with 2 silver dapples and 3 silver bays. Of all the silver dapple foals I've had (and I've had many), they have never been this dark...I even scoured through all my old foal pictures thinking I was forgetting what they looked like

Her mane & tail are more black than grey.

One of the foals I've had ended up a very dark silver dapple (he's now 17), and he was still very light when he was born....

These were taken on 2 different cameras, so the colour comes up a bit different...and if you'd like to see her in better light, I can take some more shots today (before it rains....)

Thanks for your help

~kathryn

 

[Joanne]

She looks like a silver black to me. Sometimes called a chocolate silver.

You have her shown in bright light though, so there is the possibility she did not get the silver gene from her dam and is a solid black.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I think she may be Black.

I am not sure she has Silver at all....the test is simple.

Do you know the mares has Silver, BTW, as obviously you cannot tell by looking......

 

[anoki]

I think she may be Black.I am not sure she has Silver at all....the test is simple.

Do you know the mares has Silver, BTW, as obviously you cannot tell by looking......

Do you mean have I tested the dam to see if she is a silver chestnut...no. But I was told a few years ago on here, she'd pretty much have to be if she was the result of a silver dapple to silver dapple breeding.

Thank you for the answers with the filly though....I wasn't sure I could end up with a black foal from this cross which was what was confusing me. I will have her tested to see if she carries silver or not.

~kathryn

 

[Songcatcher]

I think she may be Black.I am not sure she has Silver at all....the test is simple.

Do you know the mares has Silver, BTW, as obviously you cannot tell by looking......

Do you mean have I tested the dam to see if she is a silver chestnut...no. But I was told a few years ago on here, she'd pretty much have to be if she was the result of a silver dapple to silver dapple breeding.

Thank you for the answers with the filly though....I wasn't sure I could end up with a black foal from this cross which was what was confusing me. I will have her tested to see if she carries silver or not.

~kathryn

If the mare is the result of Silver Dapple X Silver Dapple cross, she has a 75% chance of carrying Silver, but still a 25% chance of not carrying it, UNLESS one of the parents was homozygous for Silver.

 

[anoki]

If the mare is the result of Silver Dapple X Silver Dapple cross, she has a 75% chance of carrying Silver, but still a 25% chance of not carrying it, UNLESS one of the parents was homozygous for Silver.

Thank you Songcatcher.

I admit, that while I do understand genetics, it is only to a point!

And now that I've spent the last day googling colours & genetic info....where can you go to for colour testing?

And, should I just test the foal? Or should I do the mom as well? (and now that I think of it, I have another one I may do as well)

~kathryn

 

[Songcatcher]

And now that I've spent the last day googling colours & genetic info....where can you go to for colour testing?And, should I just test the foal? Or should I do the mom as well? (and now that I think of it, I have another one I may do as well)

~kathryn

I use this site: http://www.animalgenetics.us/

Tests are $25 each. Just depends on how much it is worth to you to know quickly or wait.

 

[anoki]

Thanks again Songcatcher!!

~kathryn

 

[targetsmom]

What am I missing here? If the dam has been crossed several times with a BAY stallion and they have produced 2 silver dapples and 3 silver bays, wouldn't that mean the dam HAS to carry silver??? So why would she need to be tested? Can bay hide silver?

 

[Songcatcher]

What am I missing here? If the dam has been crossed several times with a BAY stallion and they have produced 2 silver dapples and 3 silver bays, wouldn't that mean the dam HAS to carry silver??? So why would she need to be tested? Can bay hide silver?

Very true. I was mis reading that the sire was a Silver Dapple, but that was the dam's sire.

If she has produced a Silver by a Bay stallion, the mare must carry Silver.

 

[iowa]

I have a "sorrel" mare, too, that carries the silver gene. It is very hard to tell on sorrel horses, but mine was bred to a black pinto and we have gotten two silver foals from her so she has to have the silver gene. Many sorrel horses that have the silver gene will have a lighter mane and tail than their body color. That is how mine is and it kind of looks like the mare in your photo does too. Bays and blacks cannot hide the silver gene as silver is a dominant gene, so the bay color is changed to silver bay usually a lighter mane and tail and a lighter black on the legs. The black is changed to a chocolate or silver color with lighter mane and tail.

We have gotten a black from two silver parents. Both parents each had only one silver gene plus at least one black gene. Silver can also be in the homozygous form, but the base color is determined by a different set of genes.

 

[Songcatcher]

Many sorrel horses that have the silver gene will have a lighter mane and tail than their body color. That is how mine is and it kind of looks like the mare in your photo does too.

Many Sorrel/Chestnut horses do indeed have a lighter mane and tail, but it is caused by a Flaxen gene, not Silver. They can of course have both, but many Sorrels/Chestnuts with Flaxen mane and tail test negative for Silver.

This mare has no hint of a lighter mane and tail and is proven to be a Silver carrier by her Silver colt sired by a Black Pinto.

 

[anoki]

If she has produced a Silver by a Bay stallion, the mare must carry Silver.

Sorry I confused you in the original post.

Yes, the chestnut dam is out of a silver dapple and by a silver dapple. The black filly is out of the chestnut and by a bay (whose parents were both bay).

Does that 'make' the mare a silver chestnut? or would she still need to be tested to confirm that? (just curious, that's all)

And since she has proven she carries silver, does that automatically make this baby a silver black? or does that need to be tested??

I'm just trying to learn that's all...

My 'chestnut' mare is quite a vibrant orange, and always has been. Her mane & tail are slightly lighter than her body, but not that noticeably...the picture is bleaching the colour a bit. She does have white hairs through her coat, not like a roan, but enough that you can see them, and has gotten more white hairs on her face as she has gotten older.

Just to keep things straight in my mind...when you say Sorrel/Chestnut, if they have a flaxen mane & tail, if they are 'true' sorrel/chestnut, they don't have black/dark points, correct? (the dark points make them a silver bay doesn't it? Or am I totally off my rocker?)

I hope I am not confusing things more.....

~kathryn

 

[Matt73]

Hi Kathryn

Nice foal...Congrats!

No colour expert here, but I'm pretty sure there's no such thing as a "silver chestnut". You can have a chestnut that carries the silver gene, of course. The term silver black refers to a colour. So if that gene doesn't show up (like in chestnuts), a chestnut that carries the silver gene, would still be called a chestnut (that carries the silver gene). Silver does not express itself at all in chestnuts; the white hairs and lighter mane and tail would be caused by something else, no? Opinions?

 

[Songcatcher]

Does that 'make' the mare a silver chestnut? or would she still need to be tested to confirm that? (just curious, that's all)And since she has proven she carries silver, does that automatically make this baby a silver black? or does that need to be tested??

I'm just trying to learn that's all...

~kathryn

Matt is correct. Silver does not express on Red base. Silver Chestnut is an incorrect term and very confusing because many people use it to refer to what is actually a Silver Bay. If your mare has produced a Silver (Black or Bay) foal from a stallion that is Bay (without Silver), there is no need to test your mare. She definately carries Silver.

You are correct regarding the dark points. MANY people confuse Silver Bays with Sorrels/Chestnuts.

 

[anoki]

Sorry, that is a term that several 'more knowledgeable' breeders than I am used in reference to my chestnut mare...which is why I used it.

Yes, I do know it isn't a 'colour', but used (by some) to refer to chestnuts who carry the silver gene.

But I do know what you mean about colours being confused....I have looked at many horses, and thought they weren't the colour they were said to be, only to be told 'that's what it says on the papers'.

I guess it gets more confusing when one term means something to one person and means something completely different to someone else....

Thank you for helping out though Songcatcher! I greatly appreciate it (and will put away my silver chestnut term

)

I do have one more question regarding this black foal....since the mare does carry silver, it will be for sure a silver black, correct?

~kathryn

 

[targetsmom]

Crossing a bay (assuming he is heterozygous for agouti since he sired silver dapples) X a chestnut that carries silver but with everything else unknown, this is what you can get: Offspring Color Probability

33.33% - Chestnut

25.00% - Silver Bay

25.00% - Bay

8.33% - Silver Dapple

8.33% - Black

Of course if the bay is homozygous for black, and he could be, that would change things. If he is EE for black, then he couldn't sire a chestnut foal.

I got this from http://www.animalgenetics.us/CCalculator1.asp

 

[Songcatcher]

....since the mare does carry silver, it will be for sure a silver black, correct?
~kathryn

If the mare is homozygous for Silver (got the gene from both parents), then the foal would have to be Silver. If she is heterozygous (got the gene from only one parent) there would be 50% chance of the foal being Silver.

 

[anoki]

boy I am confused!!

I have a lot of reading ahead of me to hopefully try to understand things better!

Thank you targetsmom....I found the calculator after you posted that!

and now after looking at the Animal Genetics website they talk of silver dapple and silver black being the same colour?

Are they born the same colour (I hope that doesn't sound stupid, but like I said in my earlier posts, this is not the same colour as the other silver dapple foals that I've had)? Or do people just 'call' them different colours?

~kathryn

 

[~Lisa~]

Yes silver black is the exact same color as silver dapple silver dapple can be a confusing term to some since some horses do not actually have dapples which is why the correct term is silver black

I just call them silver