Common Conformation Fault in Minis

[Tab]

This is something that is seen frequently in modern minis. I used to see more bad rears but this is a fault that many may not be aware of. The straight shoulder. The front of the leg should be located where the elbow is on many, many minis. I've seen heads and necks and rears improve, but this needs work in my herd too. You will see mincing movement with an excessively straight front. A deep shoulder will give you a good reach. Good angles behind will give you good drive.

Sometimes you will get a "hackney" in a horse with a straight shoulder angle, but mostly in minis you just get choppy movement.

This is conformation in a dog, of course. A horse shoulder should be even deeper, imo.

 

[Jean_B]

Here is one that explains WHY slope of the shoulder is so important.

 

[wingnut]

Can you share some photos of horses with both a good slope and a bad slope?

 

[Tremor]

Can you share some photos of horses with both a good slope and a bad slope?

Since I know we aren't allowed to post pictures of horses that aren't our own, I'm going to post a couple of MY horses that I am honestly not sure if they have good shoulders or not. That way, you can see some bad ones. LMAO

2011 AMHR filly:

July 2011 (3 months)

May 2012-

May 2013-

2002 AMHR mare (mother to filly above)

2013 AMHR colt

TAT, should get this thread rolling at a good speed. Go for it guys. This is one of those moments when I'm happy that I take conformation photos throughout the year.

 

[targetsmom]

Not so good shoulder: Chestnut/white filly: Not horrible, but nowhere near as nice as next one, and it affects the neck which can never have the lovely hook. If the horse has a great neck, chances are the should is good.

Good shoulder (foal with dam): Most people see this photo of Max and say "look at that neck" but the ones paying close attention recognize that comes from a great shoulder.

 

[disneyhorse]

A long, sloping shoulder is important for any type of big front-end motion in a horse of ANY size, from miniature to draft. You can find good examples of shoulders in Hackney and Modern Shetlands, since they're bred specifically for big front-end action. Miniatures are not always bred for dressage or saddleseat action specifically, so their shoulder conformation is all over the board.

There are a lot of other skeletal mechanics that affect front-end motion, not just the shoulder. The length of the forearm and pastern affect movement, as well as the hoof itself (which is why you see such crazy shoeing sometimes). It will make a dramatic difference between a dressage horse with outstanding extension or a saddleseat horse that breaks above level. Neither one is "better"... just depends on what the horse's discipline is. In the minis, it will make a difference between your Park horses or your Roadster horses.

Here is my Modern Shetland gelding... his shoulder is very, very nice (although certainly not the most extreme conformation out there compared to some Hackneys or Moderns) so take a peek:

And then some examples of minis... this little 32" stallion I owned has a good shoulder for a mini and I will then show what kind of action he had, since it was not extreme like the above horse but it was Country Pleaure:

And one last one, that's kind of fun since we're talking about conformation... conformation IS skeletal... it doesn't change too much over a horse's lifetime although conditioning of the muscle and fat can improve the overall appearance and attractiveness of a horse. So if a horse is born with a good shoulder angle, he'll generally keep it.

Here is my Shetland gelding in almost the same location and pose, at age 3 months and again at 3 years:

Hope any of this is helpful! You just have to keep staring at lots of different horses and breeds to "get it"!

Andrea

 

[Tab]

Andrea, the first picture is a good representation of depth of shoulder. The second his butt is closer to the camera, so it distorts his shoulder.

This shoulder thing was driven into me because my gma has ss dachshunds, and if the shoulder wasn't deep enough they couldn't move out at all.

I would like to see a deeper shoulder on my Romeo. If a horse is just about perfect in that regard as a foal expect it to shallow out a lot as he matures and unfolds. I rode a Morgan with a nice deep chest, what a nice smooth ride and great reach at the trot. I agree there is so much more than just shoulders. Also pay attention to width of chest. Someone once remarked that some minis looks like their front legs are coming out of one hole at the chest base. So many breeds have sacrificed structure for refinement. Refinement isn't everything.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b232/barefootminis/romeoromeocollage_zps97615e92.jpg

Romeo's coloring makes it look even more unfairly shallow. Romeo is an awesome horse in spite of this fault. I am biased, he's my boy.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b232/barefootminis/rusty6.jpg

Another great shoulder. Oh, Rusty, were you ever fun to ride!

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b232/barefootminis/lexington2011.jpg

Lex has decent shoulders and width of chest. He even has a long stride in his walk. I'd replicate him in a variety of colors. Love that boy.

 

[Tab]

Tremor, movement is the most telling. The horses whose strides are long and flowing, conformation is usually spot on. I can say better with my own horses because I have seen them move. My Romeo's front legs are also very tight. I bet you that stretching our horses legs can improve movement. I've always wondered if his tightness in his legs had something to do with me pulling on him so hard at birth. His mom was a maiden and he was a big first colt.

 

[Minimor]

If you want good movement....you don't want a wide chest. Legs shouldn't come out if the same hole but you don't want WIDE. There should be a nice upside down V where front legs meet chest. If the V becomes |_| then the chest is too wide. Wide chest....restricts movement. Truly.

 

[stormy]

Minimor I cannot agree with you on the narrow chest thing...narrow chests make a horse much more prone to interference not to mention a narrow chest affects lung capacity and endurance....and I have seen percheron hitches with amazing movement, a wide chest definately is not interfering there!

 

[Minimor]

Sorry, there is too wide just as there is too narrow. Too narrow will result in the front legs being base wideand then yes, depending if the horse is toed in or toed out (one or the other usually goes with base wide conformation) the horse may interfere with himself (toed out results in the hoof swinging inward, toed in will see the hoof swinging outward as it moves forward). Of course I cannot find any diagrams now.but definitely you want a bit of a V shape to the chest between the front legs (I dont mean a V so sharp that the front legs are coming out of the same hole, so to speakthat is of course much too narrow!) when the chest is so wide that the bottom forms a straight line between the front legs,.that is too wide. Sorry, but it is. Even the good moving draft horses wont have that sort of chest conformation; the ones that do are more pulling horses than fancy trotting horses. Too wide ribs hinder the backward sweep of the upper arm, and this in turn limits action over all. A too wide chest also cuts down on speed and agility. Some people seem to think that wider is better when it comes to a horses chest, but for anyone wanting a good moving horse they should seriously rethink that. Wide to a point, of course, but if good width of chest is desirable, that doesnt mean that very wide is better yet. Wide enough that the legs are straight, yes, but not WIDE.

 

[disneyhorse]

Hackney people don't prefer a wide chest... They look for "cleavage". ;-)

 

[Minimor]

Morgans too--your best moving Morgans are not those with the wide chests.

 

[Tab]

For a free-swinging gait width of chest is important. In this breed you do not necessarily want a barrel chest but a narrow chest is a fault. I do not have Shetland ponies or hackney, I want my minis to literally look like miniature horses. Width of chest is also important for practical and stability purposes because over half of his weight is carried on his front.

 

[Tab]

Good width of chest is proportional. If he is a stocky draft type then he should have a wide chest. If he's more refined then it should be narrower. But narrow? I don't think narrow is preferred in most breed standards.

 

[Minimor]

thing is....it isn't so much narrow as 'not wide'. People seem to take 'good width of chest' to mean WIDE. I see people calling good chests 'too narrow' and I am quite sure there are those who figure anything not built like a tank is 'too narrow'! To me it doesn't matter if it's a big horse or a mini--I like them to move well, and that beans moving from the shoulder with good knee and hock flexion--I don't like to see them putter patting along, flipping their feet out and then snatching them back before setting them down--which we still see a lot in minis. If we want them to look like miniaturized horses IMO they should also move like horses. It doesn't take a big wide chest to get that movement--and just because it isn't a big wide chest doesn't mean it is a poor chest or even a too narrow chest. It is a good chest that isn't extra wide like some people think it needs to be.

 

[Tab]

Width of chest does not mean that. Again, too wide, too narrow? One has to look at the proportion of the horse. In most breed standards a proper width of chest is neither wide nor narrow. However, there are hard working breeds that have wide chests and as long as that is proportionate to type it isn't a fault. Back to shoulders, a way to tell if angles are right on, simply look at movement. That doesn't mean high knee action necessarily. That can mean long, extended strides.

 

[targetsmom]

Just remembered that we have information on conformation on our website in the 4-H section which also has a photo of Max, only when he was older. The "lesson" is about body proportions and which distances should be equal in the ideal horse. Max's measurements showed his body proportions to be close to ideal except that his legs were a bit long in proportion to his body, but that could be because he was a yearling in the photo. It is a side view so doesn't address chest width!

http://www.ontargetminiatures.com/images/pdfs/Horse_conformation_web.pdf

 

[paintponylvr]

A long, sloping shoulder is important for any type of big front-end motion in a horse of ANY size, from miniature to draft. You can find good examples of shoulders in Hackney and Modern Shetlands, since they're bred specifically for big front-end action. Miniatures are not always bred for dressage or saddleseat action specifically, so their shoulder conformation is all over the board.s...

Hope any of this is helpful! You just have to keep staring at lots of different horses and breeds to "get it"!

Andrea

And the last two pics are the same as the colt with the drawn lines? Look at the wonderful hip angles and then the way he tracks up naturally with his hind hoof at an unforced, flat footed walk!!! I go "gaga" over a horse that walks well up under himself when loose!

I''ll post some pics later to go over - I have a mini shet that I swear is "straight shouldered" but the extension she gets is massive, so obviously she can't be bad in the shoulder...

 

[Tab]

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who likes to see a good walk too. Love those minis that at a distance and up close you cannot tell they aren't large horses.